RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales
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@pukunui I think injuries and illness over thep ast 18 months or so played thier part in hampering them getting the best 12/13 combo out there more.
For me, the best performed combo in that period was Crotty/ALB, but by the same token, Goodhue was one of the few to come out of the semi-final without his rep being dented.
IMO SBW was always a part of the puzzle, they seemd to want to get Goodhue out there too, but ALBs form threw a spanner in there, and Crotty being the class act he is, was always a 'fallback' option, plus Laumape sitting outside the circle...ended up having too many options and used them.
I reckon the change in style still wasnt bedded in, so they changed it to what they thought they need v England, we know how that turned out.
As I have said, I think SB starting wasnt the issue, it was more likely BBBR's fitness/form, and starting SB with Cane, an angry BBBR off the bench would have been the better bet...hindsight is wonderful
I'd always have had BFA in the 23 over Jordie, in hidnsight, BFA over Bridge in that semi would have been ideal, but prior to that, he was deserving.
oh well, we have months to dissect before the black jersies get pulled out again.
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So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
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@Rebound said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
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@sparky said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Rebound said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky which seemed to change slightly from pool play to finals in terms of strictness and TMO involvement....
Yeah I think the RWC has highlighted to the world, the poor/invoncsistant refeereing - esp how it was a card game in the pools, then they were put away for the knock outs. Ridiculous.
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@Machpants said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Rebound said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky which seemed to change slightly from pool play to finals in terms of strictness and TMO involvement....
Yeah I think the RWC has highlighted to the world, the poor/invoncsistant refeereing - esp how it was a card game in the pools, then they were put away for the knock outs. Ridiculous.
I read that as a success for WR and the judiciary.
There was a distinct lack of high shots as the tournament hit the latter stages. And trust me we'd have heard about them via social media trolls (especially if there was even a sniff of an AB thinking about going high).
Maybe players and coaches learned?
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@booboo said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Machpants said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Rebound said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky which seemed to change slightly from pool play to finals in terms of strictness and TMO involvement....
Yeah I think the RWC has highlighted to the world, the poor/invoncsistant refeereing - esp how it was a card game in the pools, then they were put away for the knock outs. Ridiculous.
I read that as a success for WR and the judiciary.
There was a distinct lack of high shots as the tournament hit the latter stages. And trust me we'd have heard about them via social media trolls (especially if there was even a sniff of an AB thinking about going high).
Maybe players and coaches learned?
there were without any shadow of a doubt tackles in the knockouts which were on par with tackles that were carded in pool play. now that's a hell of a low bar in some cases (stupidly low in my opinion) - but there were still plenty of incidences of contact with the head. also some incidents of contact with players in the air which previously have been a card every time.
did the harsh rulings have a positive impact on player behaviour? maybe.
did the harsh rulings ruin games? yep. arguably ruined fiji's tournament for a start.
did WR change the rules halfway through the tournament? fucken definitely.
was that a good thing? maybe in terms of not ruining games, but it is pretty damn bizarre to do that. -
@booboo said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Machpants said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Rebound said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky which seemed to change slightly from pool play to finals in terms of strictness and TMO involvement....
Yeah I think the RWC has highlighted to the world, the poor/invoncsistant refeereing - esp how it was a card game in the pools, then they were put away for the knock outs. Ridiculous.
I read that as a success for WR and the judiciary.
There was a distinct lack of high shots as the tournament hit the latter stages. And trust me we'd have heard about them via social media trolls (especially if there was even a sniff of an AB thinking about going high).
Maybe players and coaches learned?
I dunno, I thought there were quite a few instances of arguably high contact in the knockout stages, which would have warranted penalties (but probably not cards) during pool play but, instead, went unpunished.
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@pukunui said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
Agree with all of that. Especially the myth of Ben Smiths poor form that even Hansen had convinced himself of.
But adding the Ben Smith non selection to the Barrett over Cane selection, bringing in green props on the eve of the RWC, the poor management of Rieko, the muddled selections in midfield, the complete fuck up that was made of finding a replacement for Kaino and the general push towards a helter skelter style of play (aka non RWC winning) to fit BB and DMac into the side and it’s clear Hansen has lost the plot a bit over the last 2 years.Time for some fresh ideas.
If only Hansen had that perfect 20/20 vision that you had (without the ever so slight advantage of hindsight).
I think you're wrong. I think Hansen knew full well that we simply didn't have the cattle to take on England, SA upfront. At the end of 2018 we beat both England and SA away by bugger all both games and then got comprehensively munched by Ireland. In each of those three games we got completely taken to upfront.
I think Hansen saw both SA & England were seriously building, perhaps that Ireland had peaked and looked at our cattle and wondered if we had what it took to take them on. He then concluded that we probably didn't and realised that our backline was our only real shot. Then came the Bledisloe 1 and he realised that he really had to roll the dice. So he did.
It worked for a bit - we munched Aus in Bled 2 and then due to 15 mins of brilliance got past SA in the opening WC fixture. But I suspect both Eddie & Rassie watched that match and realised we still were extremely beatable up front. And so it proved.
Time for fresh ideas? Maybe. But I think as long as rugby is a pure 23 man game with 6 extra forwards on the bench, we are going to struggle to compete in the forwards battle.
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@MajorRage said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@pukunui said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
Agree with all of that. Especially the myth of Ben Smiths poor form that even Hansen had convinced himself of.
But adding the Ben Smith non selection to the Barrett over Cane selection, bringing in green props on the eve of the RWC, the poor management of Rieko, the muddled selections in midfield, the complete fuck up that was made of finding a replacement for Kaino and the general push towards a helter skelter style of play (aka non RWC winning) to fit BB and DMac into the side and it’s clear Hansen has lost the plot a bit over the last 2 years.Time for some fresh ideas.
If only Hansen had that perfect 20/20 vision that you had (without the ever so slight advantage of hindsight).
I think you're wrong. I think Hansen knew full well that we simply didn't have the cattle to take on England, SA upfront. At the end of 2018 we beat both England and SA away by bugger all both games and then got comprehensively munched by Ireland. In each of those three games we got completely taken to upfront.
I think Hansen saw both SA & England were seriously building, perhaps that Ireland had peaked and looked at our cattle and wondered if we had what it took to take them on. He then concluded that we probably didn't and realised that our backline was our only real shot. Then came the Bledisloe 1 and he realised that he really had to roll the dice. So he did.
It worked for a bit - we munched Aus in Bled 2 and then due to 15 mins of brilliance got past SA in the opening WC fixture. But I suspect both Eddie & Rassie watched that match and realised we still were extremely beatable up front. And so it proved.
Time for fresh ideas? Maybe. But I think as long as rugby is a pure 23 man game with 6 extra forwards on the bench, we are going to struggle to compete in the forwards battle.
Lack of cattle? Are you serious? What a cop out of an excuse. We have plenty of world class cattle in the forwards. The pack that smashed through the Lions in that first test was largely still there and has been dealing with the Boks just fine. What about the pack that played so well against Ireland a week earlier? Hansen got cute with tactics and selections and it bit him on the arse.
And it’s got nothing to do with hindsight. Plenty of people saw these issues over the last 2-3 years but there was always the cover of Hansen knows what he is doing, they are holding the tactics back, powder dry etc. There was no powder kept dry. It got snorted by Hansen shortly before he decided we don’t need experience to win RWC knockout games, just super rugby flash.
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@MajorRage said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@pukunui said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
Agree with all of that. Especially the myth of Ben Smiths poor form that even Hansen had convinced himself of.
But adding the Ben Smith non selection to the Barrett over Cane selection, bringing in green props on the eve of the RWC, the poor management of Rieko, the muddled selections in midfield, the complete fuck up that was made of finding a replacement for Kaino and the general push towards a helter skelter style of play (aka non RWC winning) to fit BB and DMac into the side and it’s clear Hansen has lost the plot a bit over the last 2 years.Time for some fresh ideas.
If only Hansen had that perfect 20/20 vision that you had (without the ever so slight advantage of hindsight).
I think you're wrong. I think Hansen knew full well that we simply didn't have the cattle to take on England, SA upfront. At the end of 2018 we beat both England and SA away by bugger all both games and then got comprehensively munched by Ireland. In each of those three games we got completely taken to upfront.
I think Hansen saw both SA & England were seriously building, perhaps that Ireland had peaked and looked at our cattle and wondered if we had what it took to take them on. He then concluded that we probably didn't and realised that our backline was our only real shot. Then came the Bledisloe 1 and he realised that he really had to roll the dice. So he did.
It worked for a bit - we munched Aus in Bled 2 and then due to 15 mins of brilliance got past SA in the opening WC fixture. But I suspect both Eddie & Rassie watched that match and realised we still were extremely beatable up front. And so it proved.
Time for fresh ideas? Maybe. But I think as long as rugby is a pure 23 man game with 6 extra forwards on the bench, we are going to struggle to compete in the forwards battle.
You'd have to list all the cattle in the forwards not up to it and their superiors from the other teams for that one to fly.
We lost because Hansen told them to play like pussies and fling it around behind the gainline. The players duly responded
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@pukunui said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@MajorRage said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@pukunui said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
Agree with all of that. Especially the myth of Ben Smiths poor form that even Hansen had convinced himself of.
But adding the Ben Smith non selection to the Barrett over Cane selection, bringing in green props on the eve of the RWC, the poor management of Rieko, the muddled selections in midfield, the complete fuck up that was made of finding a replacement for Kaino and the general push towards a helter skelter style of play (aka non RWC winning) to fit BB and DMac into the side and it’s clear Hansen has lost the plot a bit over the last 2 years.Time for some fresh ideas.
If only Hansen had that perfect 20/20 vision that you had (without the ever so slight advantage of hindsight).
I think you're wrong. I think Hansen knew full well that we simply didn't have the cattle to take on England, SA upfront. At the end of 2018 we beat both England and SA away by bugger all both games and then got comprehensively munched by Ireland. In each of those three games we got completely taken to upfront.
I think Hansen saw both SA & England were seriously building, perhaps that Ireland had peaked and looked at our cattle and wondered if we had what it took to take them on. He then concluded that we probably didn't and realised that our backline was our only real shot. Then came the Bledisloe 1 and he realised that he really had to roll the dice. So he did.
It worked for a bit - we munched Aus in Bled 2 and then due to 15 mins of brilliance got past SA in the opening WC fixture. But I suspect both Eddie & Rassie watched that match and realised we still were extremely beatable up front. And so it proved.
Time for fresh ideas? Maybe. But I think as long as rugby is a pure 23 man game with 6 extra forwards on the bench, we are going to struggle to compete in the forwards battle.
Lack of cattle? Are you serious? What a cop out of an excuse. We have plenty of world class cattle in the forwards. The pack that smashed through the Lions in that first test was largely still there and has been dealing with the Boks just fine. What about the pack that played so well against Ireland a week earlier? Hansen got cute with tactics and selections and it bit him on the arse.
And it’s got nothing to do with hindsight. Plenty of people saw these issues over the last 2-3 years but there was always the cover of Hansen knows what he is doing, they are holding the tactics back, powder dry etc. There was no powder kept dry. It got snorted by Hansen shortly before he decided we don’t need experience to win RWC knockout games, just super rugby flash.
So we have the cattle but got comprehensively smashed in the forwards?
And we got smashed because Hansen got cute?
Why is it a cop out to say England got over us because they had better forwards than us? Given that, they got over us because they had better forwards than us.
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@Siam said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
You'd have to list all the cattle in the forwards not up to it and their superiors from the other teams for that one to fly.
We lost because Hansen told them to play like pussies and fling it around behind the gainline. The players duly responded
A tight 5 from NZ, SA & England based on the last few world cup games would contain no All Blacks, in my view.
Thinking Hansen told them to play like pussies is just a touch irrational in my view. You'll note, quite often vs England when we took it in to them, we got turned over.
People often mention Kaino single handedly holding back Ioane in the 2011 semi as some sort of seminal moment. I think Itoje coming through our pack and holding up the ball was it's equal.
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@MajorRage said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@pukunui said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
Agree with all of that. Especially the myth of Ben Smiths poor form that even Hansen had convinced himself of.
But adding the Ben Smith non selection to the Barrett over Cane selection, bringing in green props on the eve of the RWC, the poor management of Rieko, the muddled selections in midfield, the complete fuck up that was made of finding a replacement for Kaino and the general push towards a helter skelter style of play (aka non RWC winning) to fit BB and DMac into the side and it’s clear Hansen has lost the plot a bit over the last 2 years.Time for some fresh ideas.
If only Hansen had that perfect 20/20 vision that you had (without the ever so slight advantage of hindsight).
I think you're wrong. I think Hansen knew full well that we simply didn't have the cattle to take on England, SA upfront. At the end of 2018 we beat both England and SA away by bugger all both games and then got comprehensively munched by Ireland. In each of those three games we got completely taken to upfront.
I think Hansen saw both SA & England were seriously building, perhaps that Ireland had peaked and looked at our cattle and wondered if we had what it took to take them on. He then concluded that we probably didn't and realised that our backline was our only real shot. Then came the Bledisloe 1 and he realised that he really had to roll the dice. So he did.
It worked for a bit - we munched Aus in Bled 2 and then due to 15 mins of brilliance got past SA in the opening WC fixture. But I suspect both Eddie & Rassie watched that match and realised we still were extremely beatable up front. And so it proved.
Time for fresh ideas? Maybe. But I think as long as rugby is a pure 23 man game with 6 extra forwards on the bench, we are going to struggle to compete in the forwards battle.
I think this is possibly the worst take on things I've seen on here (no disrespect intended, MR, as I usually agree with your view of the world).
There is absolutely no way we would not have beaten England with a well-executed and tactically smart game plan (as opposed to the poorly executed game plan we actually trotted out). You're talking about a forward pack that beat the best of the home nations combined in 2017 and dismantled a very English-like (not as good, but similar) forward pack the week before. It's hardly 2007 Australia in its softness!
Now, whether we then go onto beak the Boks is obviously completely hypothetical. But, certainly, there wouldn't have been any fear-factor (perhaps we would have had the psychological edge on them) and, indeed, it's likely we'd have had greater certainty in our skill execution and decision-making coming up against a familiar opponent.
In short, I don't see us getting flogged by the Springboks in the same way that England did.
(As a final point, I disagree with your assessment of the Twickenham match last year. After their fast start, our forwards were on top for the rest of that match, with a strong set piece and go forward close in. It was our backs' lack of penetration - due in part to the wet conditions - and them losing the kicking battle, which kept England close enough to get within a TMO-decision of winning.)
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@MajorRage said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@pukunui said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@MajorRage said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@pukunui said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
Agree with all of that. Especially the myth of Ben Smiths poor form that even Hansen had convinced himself of.
But adding the Ben Smith non selection to the Barrett over Cane selection, bringing in green props on the eve of the RWC, the poor management of Rieko, the muddled selections in midfield, the complete fuck up that was made of finding a replacement for Kaino and the general push towards a helter skelter style of play (aka non RWC winning) to fit BB and DMac into the side and it’s clear Hansen has lost the plot a bit over the last 2 years.Time for some fresh ideas.
If only Hansen had that perfect 20/20 vision that you had (without the ever so slight advantage of hindsight).
I think you're wrong. I think Hansen knew full well that we simply didn't have the cattle to take on England, SA upfront. At the end of 2018 we beat both England and SA away by bugger all both games and then got comprehensively munched by Ireland. In each of those three games we got completely taken to upfront.
I think Hansen saw both SA & England were seriously building, perhaps that Ireland had peaked and looked at our cattle and wondered if we had what it took to take them on. He then concluded that we probably didn't and realised that our backline was our only real shot. Then came the Bledisloe 1 and he realised that he really had to roll the dice. So he did.
It worked for a bit - we munched Aus in Bled 2 and then due to 15 mins of brilliance got past SA in the opening WC fixture. But I suspect both Eddie & Rassie watched that match and realised we still were extremely beatable up front. And so it proved.
Time for fresh ideas? Maybe. But I think as long as rugby is a pure 23 man game with 6 extra forwards on the bench, we are going to struggle to compete in the forwards battle.
Lack of cattle? Are you serious? What a cop out of an excuse. We have plenty of world class cattle in the forwards. The pack that smashed through the Lions in that first test was largely still there and has been dealing with the Boks just fine. What about the pack that played so well against Ireland a week earlier? Hansen got cute with tactics and selections and it bit him on the arse.
And it’s got nothing to do with hindsight. Plenty of people saw these issues over the last 2-3 years but there was always the cover of Hansen knows what he is doing, they are holding the tactics back, powder dry etc. There was no powder kept dry. It got snorted by Hansen shortly before he decided we don’t need experience to win RWC knockout games, just super rugby flash.
So we have the cattle but got comprehensively smashed in the forwards?
And we got smashed because Hansen got cute?
Why is it a cop out to say England got over us because they had better forwards than us? Given that, they got over us because they had better forwards than us.
We got smashed in the forwards because, to a large extent, our forwards played behind the gainline throwing out the back passes, instead of trying to go forward.
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@junior said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
I think this is possibly the worst take on things I've seen on here (no disrespect intended, MR, as I usually agree with your view of the world).
People all agreeing is boring. So it's good that I at least have generated some discussion ...
There is absolutely no way we would not have beaten England with a well-executed and tactically smart game plan (as opposed to the poorly executed game plan we actually trotted out).
I don't buy this at all. It was 19-7 with two disallowed tries for England. They destroyed us up front, and I'm not sure the game plan was entirely the issue. It's a factor for sure, but not enough to turn around that margin.
You're talking about a forward pack that beat the best of the home nations combined in 2017 and dismantled a very English-like (not as good, but similar) forward pack the week before. It's hardly 2007 Australia in its softness!
It's all about trajectories. I think that English forward pack was just starting to get it's mojo going in 2018. I think we peaked, as a pack, around 2016 if not 2017. Having an underdone Brodie Retallick just put us even further on the back foot. South Africa went from 57-0 to beating us on home soil in a year.
Now, whether we then go onto beak the Boks is obviously completely hypothetical. But, certainly, there wouldn't have been any fear-factor (perhaps we would have had the psychological edge on them) and, indeed, it's likely we'd have had greater certainty in our skill execution and decision-making coming up against a familiar opponent.
I totally agree. However, I still think there is a high chance of us losing that match, as I think Erasmus would have learned a lot from the pool game. He knew they were at least our equal up front by this point, so keeping it tight and doing what they did to England on the weekend would have had a substantial chance of generating a different result.
In short, I don't see us getting flogged by the Springboks in the same way that England did.
(As a final point, I disagree with your assessment of the Twickenham match last year. After their fast start, our forwards were on top for the rest of that match, with a strong set piece and go forward close in. It was our backs' lack of penetration - due in part to the wet conditions - and them losing the kicking battle, which kept England close enough to get within a TMO-decision of winning.)
Yeah, thats probably a fair assessment. I was at the game though, and I remember us just getting munched at the start. It took something special from Brodie to turn that around.
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@sparky said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
The refs were OK & consistent in indivisual games - it was the inconsistency between matches and Refs which got me.
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@junior said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
(As a final point, I disagree with your assessment of the Twickenham match last year. After their fast start, our forwards were on top for the rest of that match, with a strong set piece and go forward close in. It was our backs' lack of penetration - due in part to the wet conditions - and them losing the kicking battle, which kept England close enough to get within a TMO-decision of winning.)
This is spot on.
The England forwards were being hammered by the AB's in the 3rd quarter of that game. Some of the drives and hits near where I was sitting were staggering
