RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales
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All the talk of Ben Smith being old and slow was always bullshit I think. He's never been particularly fast, his acceleration and footwork in traffic have always been his strength, along with low error-rate, good option-taking and strength in the air.
He was good all super season at 15, then the ABs drop him from his preferred position and give him really limited shots to get used to wing again in poor team performances and all of a sudden he's out of the 23 for jordie barrett, who - at this stage of his career - is always on for a fucking howler of a mistake, and didn't really deserve a place in the squad in the first place. I was/am okay with the mounga/barrett combo, but smith probably should have started on the wing, and absolutely bloody definitely should have made the bench.As for Barrett over Cane. Sure you can see the theory, attack the lineout, but you don't drop sam cane to play scott barrett out of position and expect your defence to be okay. the cane/frizzell combo was actually really good in this game, gave the early defensive platform that everything else flowed from.
as for those thinking SBW would have made a difference, yeah, nah. when has he ever? alb has been great all year, and goodhue too - and he was our best in the loss. crotty should have been on the bench instead of sbw for composure and mistake-free footy.
we've got to stop thinking of the bench as being full of ball-runners who are going to stick an extra 20 points on an already-beaten opposition, and pretending that is 'impact'. Rassie showed us this WC what real bench impact looks like: a full tight 5 of big hard fluffybunnies, not a flash-harry amongst them - and they're subbing all the guys who physically are least suited to endurance. that's actually a situation where i could support jordie being picked - if it was just him and a halfback who both barely play barring injury or the result being beyond doubt, to allow a bench stacked with forwards.
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@reprobate said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
now i'm no rieko hater, but centre? now that's remarkable.
Not advocating for him as a centre, but Rieko actually spent a lot of time (relative to the time he got on the field) at centre in this RWC.
Canada: Switched at the 50 minute mark. (30 mins)
Namibia: Came on for Goodhue at the 60 minute mark. (20 mins)
Wales: Switched at 56 minutes. (24 mins) -
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Hooroo I still have one too, one of those burner ones where I converted all my tapes on to DVD
I've got a bunch of All Black games raped from mid 80s to early 90a of you want them.....?
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@BartMan said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Hooroo I still have one too, one of those burner ones where I converted all my tapes on to DVD
I've got a bunch of All Black games raped from mid 80s to early 90a of you want them.....?
good to see old fat fingered BartMan back!!
I dont actually use it, it sits in the TV cabinet gathering dust now all the stuff I wanted to keep is on DVD (somewhere...
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@reprobate said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
All the talk of Ben Smith being old and slow was always bullshit I think. He's never been particularly fast, his acceleration and footwork in traffic have always been his strength, along with low error-rate, good option-taking and strength in the air.
He was good all super season at 15, then the ABs drop him from his preferred position and give him really limited shots to get used to wing again in poor team performances and all of a sudden he's out of the 23 for jordie barrett, who - at this stage of his career - is always on for a fucking howler of a mistake, and didn't really deserve a place in the squad in the first place. I was/am okay with the mounga/barrett combo, but smith probably should have started on the wing, and absolutely bloody definitely should have made the bench.As for Barrett over Cane. Sure you can see the theory, attack the lineout, but you don't drop sam cane to play scott barrett out of position and expect your defence to be okay. the cane/frizzell combo was actually really good in this game, gave the early defensive platform that everything else flowed from.
as for those thinking SBW would have made a difference, yeah, nah. when has he ever? alb has been great all year, and goodhue too - and he was our best in the loss. crotty should have been on the bench instead of sbw for composure and mistake-free footy.
we've got to stop thinking of the bench as being full of ball-runners who are going to stick an extra 20 points on an already-beaten opposition, and pretending that is 'impact'. Rassie showed us this WC what real bench impact looks like: a full tight 5 of big hard fluffybunnies, not a flash-harry amongst them - and they're subbing all the guys who physically are least suited to endurance. that's actually a situation where i could support jordie being picked - if it was just him and a halfback who both barely play barring injury or the result being beyond doubt, to allow a bench stacked with forwards.
Agree with all of that. Especially the myth of Ben Smiths poor form that even Hansen had convinced himself of.
But adding the Ben Smith non selection to the Barrett over Cane selection, bringing in green props on the eve of the RWC, the poor management of Rieko, the muddled selections in midfield, the complete fuck up that was made of finding a replacement for Kaino and the general push towards a helter skelter style of play (aka non RWC winning) to fit BB and DMac into the side and it’s clear Hansen has lost the plot a bit over the last 2 years.Time for some fresh ideas.
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@pukunui I think injuries and illness over thep ast 18 months or so played thier part in hampering them getting the best 12/13 combo out there more.
For me, the best performed combo in that period was Crotty/ALB, but by the same token, Goodhue was one of the few to come out of the semi-final without his rep being dented.
IMO SBW was always a part of the puzzle, they seemd to want to get Goodhue out there too, but ALBs form threw a spanner in there, and Crotty being the class act he is, was always a 'fallback' option, plus Laumape sitting outside the circle...ended up having too many options and used them.
I reckon the change in style still wasnt bedded in, so they changed it to what they thought they need v England, we know how that turned out.
As I have said, I think SB starting wasnt the issue, it was more likely BBBR's fitness/form, and starting SB with Cane, an angry BBBR off the bench would have been the better bet...hindsight is wonderful
I'd always have had BFA in the 23 over Jordie, in hidnsight, BFA over Bridge in that semi would have been ideal, but prior to that, he was deserving.
oh well, we have months to dissect before the black jersies get pulled out again.
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So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
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@Rebound said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
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@sparky said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Rebound said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky which seemed to change slightly from pool play to finals in terms of strictness and TMO involvement....
Yeah I think the RWC has highlighted to the world, the poor/invoncsistant refeereing - esp how it was a card game in the pools, then they were put away for the knock outs. Ridiculous.
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@Machpants said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Rebound said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky which seemed to change slightly from pool play to finals in terms of strictness and TMO involvement....
Yeah I think the RWC has highlighted to the world, the poor/invoncsistant refeereing - esp how it was a card game in the pools, then they were put away for the knock outs. Ridiculous.
I read that as a success for WR and the judiciary.
There was a distinct lack of high shots as the tournament hit the latter stages. And trust me we'd have heard about them via social media trolls (especially if there was even a sniff of an AB thinking about going high).
Maybe players and coaches learned?
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@booboo said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Machpants said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Rebound said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky which seemed to change slightly from pool play to finals in terms of strictness and TMO involvement....
Yeah I think the RWC has highlighted to the world, the poor/invoncsistant refeereing - esp how it was a card game in the pools, then they were put away for the knock outs. Ridiculous.
I read that as a success for WR and the judiciary.
There was a distinct lack of high shots as the tournament hit the latter stages. And trust me we'd have heard about them via social media trolls (especially if there was even a sniff of an AB thinking about going high).
Maybe players and coaches learned?
there were without any shadow of a doubt tackles in the knockouts which were on par with tackles that were carded in pool play. now that's a hell of a low bar in some cases (stupidly low in my opinion) - but there were still plenty of incidences of contact with the head. also some incidents of contact with players in the air which previously have been a card every time.
did the harsh rulings have a positive impact on player behaviour? maybe.
did the harsh rulings ruin games? yep. arguably ruined fiji's tournament for a start.
did WR change the rules halfway through the tournament? fucken definitely.
was that a good thing? maybe in terms of not ruining games, but it is pretty damn bizarre to do that. -
@booboo said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Machpants said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Rebound said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky which seemed to change slightly from pool play to finals in terms of strictness and TMO involvement....
Yeah I think the RWC has highlighted to the world, the poor/invoncsistant refeereing - esp how it was a card game in the pools, then they were put away for the knock outs. Ridiculous.
I read that as a success for WR and the judiciary.
There was a distinct lack of high shots as the tournament hit the latter stages. And trust me we'd have heard about them via social media trolls (especially if there was even a sniff of an AB thinking about going high).
Maybe players and coaches learned?
I dunno, I thought there were quite a few instances of arguably high contact in the knockout stages, which would have warranted penalties (but probably not cards) during pool play but, instead, went unpunished.
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@pukunui said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
Agree with all of that. Especially the myth of Ben Smiths poor form that even Hansen had convinced himself of.
But adding the Ben Smith non selection to the Barrett over Cane selection, bringing in green props on the eve of the RWC, the poor management of Rieko, the muddled selections in midfield, the complete fuck up that was made of finding a replacement for Kaino and the general push towards a helter skelter style of play (aka non RWC winning) to fit BB and DMac into the side and it’s clear Hansen has lost the plot a bit over the last 2 years.Time for some fresh ideas.
If only Hansen had that perfect 20/20 vision that you had (without the ever so slight advantage of hindsight).
I think you're wrong. I think Hansen knew full well that we simply didn't have the cattle to take on England, SA upfront. At the end of 2018 we beat both England and SA away by bugger all both games and then got comprehensively munched by Ireland. In each of those three games we got completely taken to upfront.
I think Hansen saw both SA & England were seriously building, perhaps that Ireland had peaked and looked at our cattle and wondered if we had what it took to take them on. He then concluded that we probably didn't and realised that our backline was our only real shot. Then came the Bledisloe 1 and he realised that he really had to roll the dice. So he did.
It worked for a bit - we munched Aus in Bled 2 and then due to 15 mins of brilliance got past SA in the opening WC fixture. But I suspect both Eddie & Rassie watched that match and realised we still were extremely beatable up front. And so it proved.
Time for fresh ideas? Maybe. But I think as long as rugby is a pure 23 man game with 6 extra forwards on the bench, we are going to struggle to compete in the forwards battle.
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@MajorRage said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@pukunui said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
Agree with all of that. Especially the myth of Ben Smiths poor form that even Hansen had convinced himself of.
But adding the Ben Smith non selection to the Barrett over Cane selection, bringing in green props on the eve of the RWC, the poor management of Rieko, the muddled selections in midfield, the complete fuck up that was made of finding a replacement for Kaino and the general push towards a helter skelter style of play (aka non RWC winning) to fit BB and DMac into the side and it’s clear Hansen has lost the plot a bit over the last 2 years.Time for some fresh ideas.
If only Hansen had that perfect 20/20 vision that you had (without the ever so slight advantage of hindsight).
I think you're wrong. I think Hansen knew full well that we simply didn't have the cattle to take on England, SA upfront. At the end of 2018 we beat both England and SA away by bugger all both games and then got comprehensively munched by Ireland. In each of those three games we got completely taken to upfront.
I think Hansen saw both SA & England were seriously building, perhaps that Ireland had peaked and looked at our cattle and wondered if we had what it took to take them on. He then concluded that we probably didn't and realised that our backline was our only real shot. Then came the Bledisloe 1 and he realised that he really had to roll the dice. So he did.
It worked for a bit - we munched Aus in Bled 2 and then due to 15 mins of brilliance got past SA in the opening WC fixture. But I suspect both Eddie & Rassie watched that match and realised we still were extremely beatable up front. And so it proved.
Time for fresh ideas? Maybe. But I think as long as rugby is a pure 23 man game with 6 extra forwards on the bench, we are going to struggle to compete in the forwards battle.
Lack of cattle? Are you serious? What a cop out of an excuse. We have plenty of world class cattle in the forwards. The pack that smashed through the Lions in that first test was largely still there and has been dealing with the Boks just fine. What about the pack that played so well against Ireland a week earlier? Hansen got cute with tactics and selections and it bit him on the arse.
And it’s got nothing to do with hindsight. Plenty of people saw these issues over the last 2-3 years but there was always the cover of Hansen knows what he is doing, they are holding the tactics back, powder dry etc. There was no powder kept dry. It got snorted by Hansen shortly before he decided we don’t need experience to win RWC knockout games, just super rugby flash.
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@MajorRage said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@pukunui said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
Agree with all of that. Especially the myth of Ben Smiths poor form that even Hansen had convinced himself of.
But adding the Ben Smith non selection to the Barrett over Cane selection, bringing in green props on the eve of the RWC, the poor management of Rieko, the muddled selections in midfield, the complete fuck up that was made of finding a replacement for Kaino and the general push towards a helter skelter style of play (aka non RWC winning) to fit BB and DMac into the side and it’s clear Hansen has lost the plot a bit over the last 2 years.Time for some fresh ideas.
If only Hansen had that perfect 20/20 vision that you had (without the ever so slight advantage of hindsight).
I think you're wrong. I think Hansen knew full well that we simply didn't have the cattle to take on England, SA upfront. At the end of 2018 we beat both England and SA away by bugger all both games and then got comprehensively munched by Ireland. In each of those three games we got completely taken to upfront.
I think Hansen saw both SA & England were seriously building, perhaps that Ireland had peaked and looked at our cattle and wondered if we had what it took to take them on. He then concluded that we probably didn't and realised that our backline was our only real shot. Then came the Bledisloe 1 and he realised that he really had to roll the dice. So he did.
It worked for a bit - we munched Aus in Bled 2 and then due to 15 mins of brilliance got past SA in the opening WC fixture. But I suspect both Eddie & Rassie watched that match and realised we still were extremely beatable up front. And so it proved.
Time for fresh ideas? Maybe. But I think as long as rugby is a pure 23 man game with 6 extra forwards on the bench, we are going to struggle to compete in the forwards battle.
You'd have to list all the cattle in the forwards not up to it and their superiors from the other teams for that one to fly.
We lost because Hansen told them to play like pussies and fling it around behind the gainline. The players duly responded
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@pukunui said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@MajorRage said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@pukunui said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
Agree with all of that. Especially the myth of Ben Smiths poor form that even Hansen had convinced himself of.
But adding the Ben Smith non selection to the Barrett over Cane selection, bringing in green props on the eve of the RWC, the poor management of Rieko, the muddled selections in midfield, the complete fuck up that was made of finding a replacement for Kaino and the general push towards a helter skelter style of play (aka non RWC winning) to fit BB and DMac into the side and it’s clear Hansen has lost the plot a bit over the last 2 years.Time for some fresh ideas.
If only Hansen had that perfect 20/20 vision that you had (without the ever so slight advantage of hindsight).
I think you're wrong. I think Hansen knew full well that we simply didn't have the cattle to take on England, SA upfront. At the end of 2018 we beat both England and SA away by bugger all both games and then got comprehensively munched by Ireland. In each of those three games we got completely taken to upfront.
I think Hansen saw both SA & England were seriously building, perhaps that Ireland had peaked and looked at our cattle and wondered if we had what it took to take them on. He then concluded that we probably didn't and realised that our backline was our only real shot. Then came the Bledisloe 1 and he realised that he really had to roll the dice. So he did.
It worked for a bit - we munched Aus in Bled 2 and then due to 15 mins of brilliance got past SA in the opening WC fixture. But I suspect both Eddie & Rassie watched that match and realised we still were extremely beatable up front. And so it proved.
Time for fresh ideas? Maybe. But I think as long as rugby is a pure 23 man game with 6 extra forwards on the bench, we are going to struggle to compete in the forwards battle.
Lack of cattle? Are you serious? What a cop out of an excuse. We have plenty of world class cattle in the forwards. The pack that smashed through the Lions in that first test was largely still there and has been dealing with the Boks just fine. What about the pack that played so well against Ireland a week earlier? Hansen got cute with tactics and selections and it bit him on the arse.
And it’s got nothing to do with hindsight. Plenty of people saw these issues over the last 2-3 years but there was always the cover of Hansen knows what he is doing, they are holding the tactics back, powder dry etc. There was no powder kept dry. It got snorted by Hansen shortly before he decided we don’t need experience to win RWC knockout games, just super rugby flash.
So we have the cattle but got comprehensively smashed in the forwards?
And we got smashed because Hansen got cute?
Why is it a cop out to say England got over us because they had better forwards than us? Given that, they got over us because they had better forwards than us.
