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The debate about 12

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The debate about 12
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  • P Offline
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    pakman
    replied to Catogrande on last edited by
    #88

    @Catogrande said in The debate about 12:

    @Snowy said in The debate about 12:

    It is hypothetical - but would BOD have been even better playing outside Carter and Nonu? Along with the rest of an AB team of course. He probably would have.

    That’s a good point. In the AB team in the years running up to the 2015 RWC you had world class players surrounded by more world class players. That has to bring the overall standard up. BOD for instance was often the star in a pretty dark surrounding sky.

    Edit: His play in the 2001 Lions when he was surrounded by some other world class players, some of his work was sublime.

    And pretty handy outside Jamie Roberts in 2009 Lions.

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  • mariner4lifeM Offline
    mariner4lifeM Offline
    mariner4life
    wrote on last edited by
    #89

    Carter-Horan-Bunce for me.

    taniwharugbyT ACT CrusaderA 2 Replies Last reply
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  • taniwharugbyT Offline
    taniwharugbyT Offline
    taniwharugby
    replied to mariner4life on last edited by
    #90

    @mariner4life up until Nonu's last 2 seasons, Horan was always the clear best 12 to me, but those last 2 seasons of Nonu pushed him to at least alongside Horan, possibly even past.

    mariner4lifeM 1 Reply Last reply
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  • mariner4lifeM Offline
    mariner4lifeM Offline
    mariner4life
    replied to taniwharugby on last edited by
    #91

    @taniwharugby said in The debate about 12:

    @mariner4life up until Nonu's last 2 seasons, Horan was always the clear best 12 to me, but those last 2 seasons of Nonu pushed him to at least alongside Horan, possibly even past.

    yep, agree. Nonu's peak was at least as good. No doubt. But Horan was pretty consistently excellent for a long time. So he stays in.

    But as you say, it went from "no contest" to "bees dick".

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  • nostrildamusN Offline
    nostrildamusN Offline
    nostrildamus Banned
    replied to Victor Meldrew on last edited by nostrildamus
    #92

    @Victor-Meldrew said in The debate about 12:

    No problems we'll Tualigi.

    Excellent, I now have a new verb to add to my rugby vocab.
    Edit: but does that mean to act like a frenzied bull or jump off unsuitably fast objects in inappropriate places?

    mariner4lifeM 1 Reply Last reply
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  • mariner4lifeM Offline
    mariner4lifeM Offline
    mariner4life
    replied to nostrildamus on last edited by
    #93

    @nostrildamus said in The debate about 12:

    @Victor-Meldrew said in The debate about 12:

    No problems we'll Tualigi.

    Excellent, I now have a new verb to add to my rugby vocab.
    Edit: but does that mean to act like a frenzied bull or jump off unsuitably fast objects in inappropriate places?

    it means "play 1 in every 4 games. at best"

    aka tampon

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  • MN5M Offline
    MN5M Offline
    MN5
    replied to nzzp on last edited by
    #94

    @nzzp said in The debate about 12:

    @pakman said in The debate about 12:

    Broadly agree, but they always found De Villiers and Fourie a handful.

    Hell yes - but for how long? Longevity is one of those things that goes to a 'great'. Rupeni was incredible, but short career. Shane Bond was off the charts good, but injured and short career. BOD had the longevity and the talent, and with a consistent midfield partner could have formed a combo at that level

    Gordon D’arcys test career forgotten just like that

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  • P Offline
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    pakman
    replied to MN5 on last edited by
    #95

    @MN5 said in The debate about 12:

    @nzzp said in The debate about 12:

    @pakman said in The debate about 12:

    Broadly agree, but they always found De Villiers and Fourie a handful.

    Hell yes - but for how long? Longevity is one of those things that goes to a 'great'. Rupeni was incredible, but short career. Shane Bond was off the charts good, but injured and short career. BOD had the longevity and the talent, and with a consistent midfield partner could have formed a combo at that level

    Gordon D’arcys test career forgotten just like that

    D’Arcy was a very good 12, and had excellent combo with BOD. Interesting that early on he was at 13 and BOD 12. But was poor in 2005 Lions and coaches wanted basher like Roberts to partner BOD in 2009.
    Writes some interesting articles.

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  • BonesB Offline
    BonesB Offline
    Bones
    replied to voodoo on last edited by
    #96

    @voodoo said in The debate about 12:

    @sparky said in The debate about 12:

    @pakman Would take Carter-Nonu-Snake ahead of that combo every day of the year.

    I can only assume this is based on backing established combinations, because as much as I loved Conrad, he simply wasn't a patch on BOD. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise, no matter how much you might dislike him.

    How drunk were you when you posted this? Conrad Smith not a patch on BOD? Righto...I know which is the ludicrous suggestion...

    voodooV 1 Reply Last reply
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  • voodooV Offline
    voodooV Offline
    voodoo
    replied to Bones on last edited by
    #97

    @Bones said in The debate about 12:

    @voodoo said in The debate about 12:

    @sparky said in The debate about 12:

    @pakman Would take Carter-Nonu-Snake ahead of that combo every day of the year.

    I can only assume this is based on backing established combinations, because as much as I loved Conrad, he simply wasn't a patch on BOD. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise, no matter how much you might dislike him.

    How drunk were you when you posted this? Conrad Smith not a patch on BOD? Righto...I know which is the ludicrous suggestion...

    Really?

    I absolutely LOVE Smith, amazing player over a long time for the ABs

    But let's look at their records:

    Smith played 94 tests over 11yrs, scored 130 points and straightened the line without fail, put a bunch of wingers away and was a defensive stalwart. Legend.

    BOD played 133 times for Ireland, 83 times as captain, scored 245 points. Highest try scorer in their history. 4th most capped player in history. Played for the Lions 8 times (yes, thats 3 consecutive Lions tours).

    Nominated for world player of the year 3 times, player of the 6n 3 times. Won World Rugby Player of the Decade for the 2000's.

    So for the "career" award there is no contest.

    Then you move to "who had the highest ceiling" in a single game/series as the other way to measure.

    Again, I just can't see how you would pick Smith over him EXCEPT as a specific midfield partner to a certain player, like Nonu. But 9 times out of 10, BOD is going to be the better 13 than Smith in any given backline. He is without doubt a superior attacking player to Smith. Much better outside break, better pace, great swerve, amazing timing. Also a very good defender, maybe he isn't as hard a hitter or possibly as good an organiser as Smith, but certainly no slouch.

    Its just not close for me.

    Open to hearing your counter argument though mate.

    taniwharugbyT CatograndeC 2 Replies Last reply
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  • taniwharugbyT Offline
    taniwharugbyT Offline
    taniwharugby
    replied to voodoo on last edited by
    #98

    @voodoo for me it was your hyperbole that was plain wrong.

    he simply wasn't a patch on BOD

    Its just not close for me.

    I dont see him being that clearly ahead.

    If you go by numbers, man for man without looking at who plays at 11/12/14 to work with him, then yeah I could be convinced without being too bothered, but start putting a dream team together, I am less inclined to.

    voodooV 1 Reply Last reply
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  • voodooV Offline
    voodooV Offline
    voodoo
    replied to taniwharugby on last edited by
    #99

    @taniwharugby said in The debate about 12:

    @voodoo for me it was your hyperbole that was plain wrong.

    he simply wasn't a patch on BOD

    Its just not close for me.

    I dont see him being that clearly ahead.

    If you go by numbers, man for man without looking at who plays at 11/12/14 to work with him, then yeah I could be convinced without being too bothered, but start putting a dream team together, I am less inclined to.

    Fine, OK, its not like BOD was a 9 and Conrad a 6. It's more like a 9 and an 8.5, but i find it absurd that anyone would think the ratings could be reversed - does that make sense?

    As an example, its like in the NBA Finals this season - Lebron was maybe only 5% better than Anthony Davis, but its such a clear 5%, that he was a unanimous choice for Finals MVP.

    taniwharugbyT D 2 Replies Last reply
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  • taniwharugbyT Offline
    taniwharugbyT Offline
    taniwharugby
    replied to voodoo on last edited by
    #100

    @voodoo you lost me at NBA Finals 😉

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  • CatograndeC Online
    CatograndeC Online
    Catogrande
    replied to voodoo on last edited by
    #101

    @voodoo Cough. Cough. That’s four consecutive Lions tours, though likely one doesn’t count due to his premature death. But yes, I’m with you on BOD, the pre-eminent centre of his time. Some notable challengers for sure but as you say, that extra 5% is huge at that level.

    voodooV 1 Reply Last reply
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  • voodooV Offline
    voodooV Offline
    voodoo
    replied to Catogrande on last edited by
    #102

    @Catogrande ach, sorry! Wouldn't be the Fern without some sort of innacuracy thrown in...

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    2
  • ACT CrusaderA Offline
    ACT CrusaderA Offline
    ACT Crusader
    replied to mariner4life on last edited by
    #103

    @mariner4life said in The debate about 12:

    Carter-Horan-Bunce for me.

    Spencer-Mauger-MacDonald

    MN5M boobooB 2 Replies Last reply
    3
  • MN5M Offline
    MN5M Offline
    MN5
    replied to ACT Crusader on last edited by
    #104

    @ACT-Crusader said in The debate about 12:

    @mariner4life said in The debate about 12:

    Carter-Horan-Bunce for me.

    Spencer-Mauger-MacDonald

    With Ben Blair at fullback and Caleb Ralph and Scott Hamilton on the wings? Imagine Andy Ellis feeding that backline

    1 Reply Last reply
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  • boobooB Offline
    boobooB Offline
    booboo
    replied to ACT Crusader on last edited by booboo
    #105

    @ACT-Crusader said in The debate about 12:

    @mariner4life said in The debate about 12:

    Carter-Horan-Bunce for me.

    Spencer-Mauger-MacDonald

    Who are you and how did you find out ACTC's password?

    ACT CrusaderA 1 Reply Last reply
    6
  • ACT CrusaderA Offline
    ACT CrusaderA Offline
    ACT Crusader
    replied to booboo on last edited by
    #106

    @booboo said in The debate about 12:

    @ACT-Crusader said in The debate about 12:

    @mariner4life said in The debate about 12:

    Carter-Horan-Bunce for me.

    Spencer-Mauger-MacDonald

    Who are you and how did you find out ACTC's password?

    You might remember I went by ACT Aucklander for a season on the Fern...

    😎

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    0
  • rotatedR Offline
    rotatedR Offline
    rotated
    replied to Bones on last edited by
    #107

    @Bones said in The debate about 12:

    @DMX said in The debate about 12:

    Think I mentioned elsewhere how much I enjoyed the '08 season, a big reason was his emergence as a 12.

    Yeah, he had a really shit on field attitude and was a frustrating player to watch. He'd make mistakes and not try to atone (like spilling the ball and then just turning his back and walking off). Definitely became a lot more focused.

    Even round one of Super Rugby in 2008 - playing on the wing - against the Warratahs he got a yellow for throwing a knee in and then almost got a red for a high tackle.

    At least part way into that super season I gave him little chance of being long term AB.

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