The debate about 12
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@ACT-Crusader said in The debate about 12:
@Paekakboyz said in The debate about 12:
@ACT-Crusader snakey also had a lot to do with it. A funny duo as they both admit, but holy shit they were amazing together. Nonus flat, wide skip pass was something to behold.
The combination over so many years no doubt made things easier for the both of them. Knowing what the guy next to you is going to do and react in certain circumstances can’t be understated.
Amusing to recall that Frank often seemed to have more idea of what Little would do next than Walter himself.
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@nzzp said in The debate about 12:
@pakman said in The debate about 12:
@ACT-Crusader said in The debate about 12:
@DMX said in The debate about 12:
When Nonu was first moved to 12 for ABs in 2006 there was a lot of head scratching when Henry and co said they thought it was his best position. If I remember right he was chosen ahead of Mauger (maybe McAllister too?). I don't remember if he had already started playing there with the Canes?
He only played one test at 2nd 5 in 06. The others were at centre and off the bench stints at centre and on the wing. In 2006 there was a lot of rotation.
Then in 07 he only had a couple of brief stints off the bench at centre given Mauger and Lucky were the preferred 2nd 5s and Snakey, Mils and Ice the preferred centres.
Fast forward to after the RWC and Nonu and Snakey assume first choice midfield for the mid-season tests and then into the 3Ns. And as they say the rest is history.
In 2006 EOYT Snakey was part of demolition in first French test outside Lucky. Three different combinations. Nonu 13 vs England outside Mauger and 12 in 2nd French test inside Mils.
If only?
Don't forget the 19th test match between NZ and Ireland, 10 June 2006 at Hamilton. Nonu was at centre and from my memory had a massive, massive defensive miss on BOD that resulted in a try. People were saying he shouldn't ever play for the ABs again it was that bad.
we won 34-26, but it was tighter than we'd like (and some bad blood after Lions '05)
Edit:
Carter-Nonu-BOD would be my dream inside backs.
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@sparky said in The debate about 12:
@pakman Would take Carter-Nonu-Snake ahead of that combo every day of the year.
I can only assume this is based on backing established combinations, because as much as I loved Conrad, he simply wasn't a patch on BOD. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise, no matter how much you might dislike him.
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@voodoo said in The debate about 12:
@sparky said in The debate about 12:
@pakman Would take Carter-Nonu-Snake ahead of that combo every day of the year.
I can only assume this is based on backing established combinations, because as much as I loved Conrad, he simply wasn't a patch on BOD. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise, no matter how much you might dislike him.
TBH can't remember BOD outplaying Smith once, but maybe thats just me.
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@sparky said in The debate about 12:
@pakman Would take Carter-Nonu-Snake ahead of that combo every day of the year.
I wouldn’t pick one Irish player in a combined NZ-Ireland team...
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Different types of players. Conrad complimented Nonu perfectly, as an individual you might say BOD but the proof is the the pudding for the Nonu/Smith combination.
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@ACT-Crusader thanks Sean.
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@mofitzy_ said in The debate about 12:
Different types of players. Conrad complimented Nonu perfectly, as an individual you might say BOD but the proof is the the pudding for the Nonu/Smith combination.
this 100%.
BOD > Smith, but Nonu+Smith>Daylight>anyone else
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@voodoo said in The debate about 12:
@sparky said in The debate about 12:
@pakman Would take Carter-Nonu-Snake ahead of that combo every day of the year.
I can only assume this is based on backing established combinations, because as much as I loved Conrad, he simply wasn't a patch on BOD. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise, no matter how much you might dislike him.
I always liked the bald Ozzie guy who played 13. Also that South African, the tall big French guy and the tall skinny English fella.
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@nzzp said in The debate about 12:
@mofitzy_ said in The debate about 12:
Different types of players. Conrad complimented Nonu perfectly, as an individual you might say BOD but the proof is the the pudding for the Nonu/Smith combination.
this 100%.
BOD > Smith, but Nonu+Smith>Daylight>anyone else
Broadly agree, but they always found De Villiers and Fourie a handful.
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@pakman said in The debate about 12:
Broadly agree, but they always found De Villiers and Fourie a handful.
Hell yes - but for how long? Longevity is one of those things that goes to a 'great'. Rupeni was incredible, but short career. Shane Bond was off the charts good, but injured and short career. BOD had the longevity and the talent, and with a consistent midfield partner could have formed a combo at that level
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It is hypothetical - but would BOD have been even better playing outside Carter and Nonu? Along with the rest of an AB team of course. He probably would have.
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@Snowy said in The debate about 12:
It is hypothetical - but would BOD have been even better playing outside Carter and Nonu? Along with the rest of an AB team of course. He probably would have.
That’s a good point. In the AB team in the years running up to the 2015 RWC you had world class players surrounded by more world class players. That has to bring the overall standard up. BOD for instance was often the star in a pretty dark surrounding sky.
Edit: His play in the 2001 Lions when he was surrounded by some other world class players, some of his work was sublime.
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@Catogrande said in The debate about 12:
@Snowy said in The debate about 12:
It is hypothetical - but would BOD have been even better playing outside Carter and Nonu? Along with the rest of an AB team of course. He probably would have.
That’s a good point. In the AB team in the years running up to the 2015 RWC you had world class players surrounded by more world class players. That has to bring the overall standard up. BOD for instance was often the star in a pretty dark surrounding sky.
Edit: His play in the 2001 Lions when he was surrounded by some other world class players, some of his work was sublime.
And pretty handy outside Jamie Roberts in 2009 Lions.
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Carter-Horan-Bunce for me.
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@mariner4life up until Nonu's last 2 seasons, Horan was always the clear best 12 to me, but those last 2 seasons of Nonu pushed him to at least alongside Horan, possibly even past.
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@taniwharugby said in The debate about 12:
@mariner4life up until Nonu's last 2 seasons, Horan was always the clear best 12 to me, but those last 2 seasons of Nonu pushed him to at least alongside Horan, possibly even past.
yep, agree. Nonu's peak was at least as good. No doubt. But Horan was pretty consistently excellent for a long time. So he stays in.
But as you say, it went from "no contest" to "bees dick".
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nostrildamusreplied to Victor Meldrew on 29 Oct 2020, 23:53 last edited by nostrildamus 29 Oct 2020, 23:55
@Victor-Meldrew said in The debate about 12:
No problems we'll Tualigi.
Excellent, I now have a new verb to add to my rugby vocab.
Edit: but does that mean to act like a frenzied bull or jump off unsuitably fast objects in inappropriate places? -
@nostrildamus said in The debate about 12:
@Victor-Meldrew said in The debate about 12:
No problems we'll Tualigi.
Excellent, I now have a new verb to add to my rugby vocab.
Edit: but does that mean to act like a frenzied bull or jump off unsuitably fast objects in inappropriate places?it means "play 1 in every 4 games. at best"
aka tampon
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@nzzp said in The debate about 12:
@pakman said in The debate about 12:
Broadly agree, but they always found De Villiers and Fourie a handful.
Hell yes - but for how long? Longevity is one of those things that goes to a 'great'. Rupeni was incredible, but short career. Shane Bond was off the charts good, but injured and short career. BOD had the longevity and the talent, and with a consistent midfield partner could have formed a combo at that level
Gordon D’arcys test career forgotten just like that
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@MN5 said in The debate about 12:
@nzzp said in The debate about 12:
@pakman said in The debate about 12:
Broadly agree, but they always found De Villiers and Fourie a handful.
Hell yes - but for how long? Longevity is one of those things that goes to a 'great'. Rupeni was incredible, but short career. Shane Bond was off the charts good, but injured and short career. BOD had the longevity and the talent, and with a consistent midfield partner could have formed a combo at that level
Gordon D’arcys test career forgotten just like that
D’Arcy was a very good 12, and had excellent combo with BOD. Interesting that early on he was at 13 and BOD 12. But was poor in 2005 Lions and coaches wanted basher like Roberts to partner BOD in 2009.
Writes some interesting articles. -
@voodoo said in The debate about 12:
@sparky said in The debate about 12:
@pakman Would take Carter-Nonu-Snake ahead of that combo every day of the year.
I can only assume this is based on backing established combinations, because as much as I loved Conrad, he simply wasn't a patch on BOD. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise, no matter how much you might dislike him.
How drunk were you when you posted this? Conrad Smith not a patch on BOD? Righto...I know which is the ludicrous suggestion...
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@Bones said in The debate about 12:
@voodoo said in The debate about 12:
@sparky said in The debate about 12:
@pakman Would take Carter-Nonu-Snake ahead of that combo every day of the year.
I can only assume this is based on backing established combinations, because as much as I loved Conrad, he simply wasn't a patch on BOD. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise, no matter how much you might dislike him.
How drunk were you when you posted this? Conrad Smith not a patch on BOD? Righto...I know which is the ludicrous suggestion...
Really?
I absolutely LOVE Smith, amazing player over a long time for the ABs
But let's look at their records:
Smith played 94 tests over 11yrs, scored 130 points and straightened the line without fail, put a bunch of wingers away and was a defensive stalwart. Legend.
BOD played 133 times for Ireland, 83 times as captain, scored 245 points. Highest try scorer in their history. 4th most capped player in history. Played for the Lions 8 times (yes, thats 3 consecutive Lions tours).
Nominated for world player of the year 3 times, player of the 6n 3 times. Won World Rugby Player of the Decade for the 2000's.
So for the "career" award there is no contest.
Then you move to "who had the highest ceiling" in a single game/series as the other way to measure.
Again, I just can't see how you would pick Smith over him EXCEPT as a specific midfield partner to a certain player, like Nonu. But 9 times out of 10, BOD is going to be the better 13 than Smith in any given backline. He is without doubt a superior attacking player to Smith. Much better outside break, better pace, great swerve, amazing timing. Also a very good defender, maybe he isn't as hard a hitter or possibly as good an organiser as Smith, but certainly no slouch.
Its just not close for me.
Open to hearing your counter argument though mate.
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@voodoo for me it was your hyperbole that was plain wrong.
he simply wasn't a patch on BOD
Its just not close for me.
I dont see him being that clearly ahead.
If you go by numbers, man for man without looking at who plays at 11/12/14 to work with him, then yeah I could be convinced without being too bothered, but start putting a dream team together, I am less inclined to.
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@taniwharugby said in The debate about 12:
@voodoo for me it was your hyperbole that was plain wrong.
he simply wasn't a patch on BOD
Its just not close for me.
I dont see him being that clearly ahead.
If you go by numbers, man for man without looking at who plays at 11/12/14 to work with him, then yeah I could be convinced without being too bothered, but start putting a dream team together, I am less inclined to.
Fine, OK, its not like BOD was a 9 and Conrad a 6. It's more like a 9 and an 8.5, but i find it absurd that anyone would think the ratings could be reversed - does that make sense?
As an example, its like in the NBA Finals this season - Lebron was maybe only 5% better than Anthony Davis, but its such a clear 5%, that he was a unanimous choice for Finals MVP.
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@voodoo you lost me at NBA Finals
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@voodoo Cough. Cough. That’s four consecutive Lions tours, though likely one doesn’t count due to his premature death. But yes, I’m with you on BOD, the pre-eminent centre of his time. Some notable challengers for sure but as you say, that extra 5% is huge at that level.
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@Catogrande ach, sorry! Wouldn't be the Fern without some sort of innacuracy thrown in...
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@ACT-Crusader said in The debate about 12:
@mariner4life said in The debate about 12:
Carter-Horan-Bunce for me.
Spencer-Mauger-MacDonald
With Ben Blair at fullback and Caleb Ralph and Scott Hamilton on the wings? Imagine Andy Ellis feeding that backline
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@ACT-Crusader said in The debate about 12:
@mariner4life said in The debate about 12:
Carter-Horan-Bunce for me.
Spencer-Mauger-MacDonald
Who are you and how did you find out ACTC's password?
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@booboo said in The debate about 12:
@ACT-Crusader said in The debate about 12:
@mariner4life said in The debate about 12:
Carter-Horan-Bunce for me.
Spencer-Mauger-MacDonald
Who are you and how did you find out ACTC's password?
You might remember I went by ACT Aucklander for a season on the Fern...
😎
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@Bones said in The debate about 12:
@DMX said in The debate about 12:
Think I mentioned elsewhere how much I enjoyed the '08 season, a big reason was his emergence as a 12.
Yeah, he had a really shit on field attitude and was a frustrating player to watch. He'd make mistakes and not try to atone (like spilling the ball and then just turning his back and walking off). Definitely became a lot more focused.
Even round one of Super Rugby in 2008 - playing on the wing - against the Warratahs he got a yellow for throwing a knee in and then almost got a red for a high tackle.
At least part way into that super season I gave him little chance of being long term AB.
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@voodoo said in The debate about 12:
@taniwharugby said in The debate about 12:
@voodoo for me it was your hyperbole that was plain wrong.
he simply wasn't a patch on BOD
Its just not close for me.
I dont see him being that clearly ahead.
If you go by numbers, man for man without looking at who plays at 11/12/14 to work with him, then yeah I could be convinced without being too bothered, but start putting a dream team together, I am less inclined to.
Fine, OK, its not like BOD was a 9 and Conrad a 6. It's more like a 9 and an 8.5, but i find it absurd that anyone would think the ratings could be reversed - does that make sense?
As an example, its like in the NBA Finals this season - Lebron was maybe only 5% better than Anthony Davis, but its such a clear 5%, that he was a unanimous choice for Finals MVP.
If we are talking NBA maybe the Walt Chamberlin Bill Russell comparison a little more appropriate? Wilt more flashy , better stats, Russell more championships and better head-to-head.
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@voodoo
BoD ..- never had a Nick Cage character named after him.
- would be less articulate at the bar.
- may have been a Lion but that is irrelevant as Conrad would never be a Lion..he's no pussycat.
PLUS
BoD - would rather play tiddliwinks.
While Conrad Smith.. - would never pick a fight with Tana.
- would never do more than raise an eyebrow if his 100kg midfield partner was covered in eyeliner.
- captained the Hurricanes and was Wellington, Dominion, Kel Tremain and Steinlager Investec Super Rugby Player of the Year/sportsman of the year.
- Record 50 matches with Nonu. Update: more than 50: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/conrad-smith-and-maa-nonu-enter-the-record-books-20131003-2uvco.html
- was a decent fast bowler.
- always brought out the best in the people around him (RoG turned into a tackle-adverse revolving clothesline.
- was always the first choice at 13. (That I remember).
- in 2012:
- And finally, for the ultimate smackdown, who was a vital member of TWO Rugby World Cup winning teams?
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Both great centers, interesting debate....
Conrad was the glue in the backline, not sure if BOD would have worked out, would have been fun to see him there and find out.
Physically BOD the more gifted player, not sure if he would have complimented Nonu or not though. -
@Crucial said in The debate about 12:
On the AB side of things, Eddies musings add weight to the selection of JG and ALB seemingly the wrong way around.
If rush defences are the problem then it makes sense for your faster more elusive centre to play 13. You either skip 12 to outside channels or 12 looks to take a tackle and provide quick ball that the “three quarters “ can use.Makes sense but really speaks to poor coaching, sadly.
What happens if the really quick guy who usually plays at 13 is injured?
How do you beat the rush defence then?
Much better to actually coach a system where you can put any of your available options in there without dramatically reducing its effectiveness
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@junior said in The debate about 12:
How do you beat the rush defence then?
Same way you do in Lions 1 - attack the space just aroudn teh 10, angled runs, and very good hands. The rush leaves space behind - you have to be really accurate to make it work, but if you can hold a pass for a heartbeat, you can create some quality space
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