The debate about 12
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@nzzp said in The debate about 12:
@pakman said in The debate about 12:
Broadly agree, but they always found De Villiers and Fourie a handful.
Hell yes - but for how long? Longevity is one of those things that goes to a 'great'. Rupeni was incredible, but short career. Shane Bond was off the charts good, but injured and short career. BOD had the longevity and the talent, and with a consistent midfield partner could have formed a combo at that level
Gordon D’arcys test career forgotten just like that
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@MN5 said in The debate about 12:
@nzzp said in The debate about 12:
@pakman said in The debate about 12:
Broadly agree, but they always found De Villiers and Fourie a handful.
Hell yes - but for how long? Longevity is one of those things that goes to a 'great'. Rupeni was incredible, but short career. Shane Bond was off the charts good, but injured and short career. BOD had the longevity and the talent, and with a consistent midfield partner could have formed a combo at that level
Gordon D’arcys test career forgotten just like that
D’Arcy was a very good 12, and had excellent combo with BOD. Interesting that early on he was at 13 and BOD 12. But was poor in 2005 Lions and coaches wanted basher like Roberts to partner BOD in 2009.
Writes some interesting articles. -
@voodoo said in The debate about 12:
@sparky said in The debate about 12:
@pakman Would take Carter-Nonu-Snake ahead of that combo every day of the year.
I can only assume this is based on backing established combinations, because as much as I loved Conrad, he simply wasn't a patch on BOD. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise, no matter how much you might dislike him.
How drunk were you when you posted this? Conrad Smith not a patch on BOD? Righto...I know which is the ludicrous suggestion...
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@Bones said in The debate about 12:
@voodoo said in The debate about 12:
@sparky said in The debate about 12:
@pakman Would take Carter-Nonu-Snake ahead of that combo every day of the year.
I can only assume this is based on backing established combinations, because as much as I loved Conrad, he simply wasn't a patch on BOD. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise, no matter how much you might dislike him.
How drunk were you when you posted this? Conrad Smith not a patch on BOD? Righto...I know which is the ludicrous suggestion...
Really?
I absolutely LOVE Smith, amazing player over a long time for the ABs
But let's look at their records:
Smith played 94 tests over 11yrs, scored 130 points and straightened the line without fail, put a bunch of wingers away and was a defensive stalwart. Legend.
BOD played 133 times for Ireland, 83 times as captain, scored 245 points. Highest try scorer in their history. 4th most capped player in history. Played for the Lions 8 times (yes, thats 3 consecutive Lions tours).
Nominated for world player of the year 3 times, player of the 6n 3 times. Won World Rugby Player of the Decade for the 2000's.
So for the "career" award there is no contest.
Then you move to "who had the highest ceiling" in a single game/series as the other way to measure.
Again, I just can't see how you would pick Smith over him EXCEPT as a specific midfield partner to a certain player, like Nonu. But 9 times out of 10, BOD is going to be the better 13 than Smith in any given backline. He is without doubt a superior attacking player to Smith. Much better outside break, better pace, great swerve, amazing timing. Also a very good defender, maybe he isn't as hard a hitter or possibly as good an organiser as Smith, but certainly no slouch.
Its just not close for me.
Open to hearing your counter argument though mate.
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@voodoo for me it was your hyperbole that was plain wrong.
he simply wasn't a patch on BOD
Its just not close for me.
I dont see him being that clearly ahead.
If you go by numbers, man for man without looking at who plays at 11/12/14 to work with him, then yeah I could be convinced without being too bothered, but start putting a dream team together, I am less inclined to.
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@taniwharugby said in The debate about 12:
@voodoo for me it was your hyperbole that was plain wrong.
he simply wasn't a patch on BOD
Its just not close for me.
I dont see him being that clearly ahead.
If you go by numbers, man for man without looking at who plays at 11/12/14 to work with him, then yeah I could be convinced without being too bothered, but start putting a dream team together, I am less inclined to.
Fine, OK, its not like BOD was a 9 and Conrad a 6. It's more like a 9 and an 8.5, but i find it absurd that anyone would think the ratings could be reversed - does that make sense?
As an example, its like in the NBA Finals this season - Lebron was maybe only 5% better than Anthony Davis, but its such a clear 5%, that he was a unanimous choice for Finals MVP.
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@voodoo Cough. Cough. That’s four consecutive Lions tours, though likely one doesn’t count due to his premature death. But yes, I’m with you on BOD, the pre-eminent centre of his time. Some notable challengers for sure but as you say, that extra 5% is huge at that level.
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@Catogrande ach, sorry! Wouldn't be the Fern without some sort of innacuracy thrown in...
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@ACT-Crusader said in The debate about 12:
@mariner4life said in The debate about 12:
Carter-Horan-Bunce for me.
Spencer-Mauger-MacDonald
With Ben Blair at fullback and Caleb Ralph and Scott Hamilton on the wings? Imagine Andy Ellis feeding that backline
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@ACT-Crusader said in The debate about 12:
@mariner4life said in The debate about 12:
Carter-Horan-Bunce for me.
Spencer-Mauger-MacDonald
Who are you and how did you find out ACTC's password?
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@booboo said in The debate about 12:
@ACT-Crusader said in The debate about 12:
@mariner4life said in The debate about 12:
Carter-Horan-Bunce for me.
Spencer-Mauger-MacDonald
Who are you and how did you find out ACTC's password?
You might remember I went by ACT Aucklander for a season on the Fern...
😎
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@Bones said in The debate about 12:
@DMX said in The debate about 12:
Think I mentioned elsewhere how much I enjoyed the '08 season, a big reason was his emergence as a 12.
Yeah, he had a really shit on field attitude and was a frustrating player to watch. He'd make mistakes and not try to atone (like spilling the ball and then just turning his back and walking off). Definitely became a lot more focused.
Even round one of Super Rugby in 2008 - playing on the wing - against the Warratahs he got a yellow for throwing a knee in and then almost got a red for a high tackle.
At least part way into that super season I gave him little chance of being long term AB.
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@voodoo said in The debate about 12:
@taniwharugby said in The debate about 12:
@voodoo for me it was your hyperbole that was plain wrong.
he simply wasn't a patch on BOD
Its just not close for me.
I dont see him being that clearly ahead.
If you go by numbers, man for man without looking at who plays at 11/12/14 to work with him, then yeah I could be convinced without being too bothered, but start putting a dream team together, I am less inclined to.
Fine, OK, its not like BOD was a 9 and Conrad a 6. It's more like a 9 and an 8.5, but i find it absurd that anyone would think the ratings could be reversed - does that make sense?
As an example, its like in the NBA Finals this season - Lebron was maybe only 5% better than Anthony Davis, but its such a clear 5%, that he was a unanimous choice for Finals MVP.
If we are talking NBA maybe the Walt Chamberlin Bill Russell comparison a little more appropriate? Wilt more flashy , better stats, Russell more championships and better head-to-head.
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@voodoo
BoD ..- never had a Nick Cage character named after him.
- would be less articulate at the bar.
- may have been a Lion but that is irrelevant as Conrad would never be a Lion..he's no pussycat.
PLUS
BoD - would rather play tiddliwinks.
While Conrad Smith.. - would never pick a fight with Tana.
- would never do more than raise an eyebrow if his 100kg midfield partner was covered in eyeliner.
- captained the Hurricanes and was Wellington, Dominion, Kel Tremain and Steinlager Investec Super Rugby Player of the Year/sportsman of the year.
- Record 50 matches with Nonu. Update: more than 50: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/conrad-smith-and-maa-nonu-enter-the-record-books-20131003-2uvco.html
- was a decent fast bowler.
- always brought out the best in the people around him (RoG turned into a tackle-adverse revolving clothesline.
- was always the first choice at 13. (That I remember).
- in 2012:
"Conrad Smith has won 50 of the 56 test matches he has played, giving him the highest winning percentage of any player in the world with more than 50 test wins at 89.3 percent."
The Stats Don't Lie: Conrad Smith's impressive winning record - NZ Herald
Latest breaking news articles, photos, video, blogs, reviews, analysis, opinion and reader comment from New Zealand and around the World - NZ Herald
- And finally, for the ultimate smackdown, who was a vital member of TWO Rugby World Cup winning teams?
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Both great centers, interesting debate....
Conrad was the glue in the backline, not sure if BOD would have worked out, would have been fun to see him there and find out.
Physically BOD the more gifted player, not sure if he would have complimented Nonu or not though. -
@Crucial said in The debate about 12:
On the AB side of things, Eddies musings add weight to the selection of JG and ALB seemingly the wrong way around.
If rush defences are the problem then it makes sense for your faster more elusive centre to play 13. You either skip 12 to outside channels or 12 looks to take a tackle and provide quick ball that the “three quarters “ can use.Makes sense but really speaks to poor coaching, sadly.
What happens if the really quick guy who usually plays at 13 is injured?
How do you beat the rush defence then?
Much better to actually coach a system where you can put any of your available options in there without dramatically reducing its effectiveness
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@junior said in The debate about 12:
How do you beat the rush defence then?
Same way you do in Lions 1 - attack the space just aroudn teh 10, angled runs, and very good hands. The rush leaves space behind - you have to be really accurate to make it work, but if you can hold a pass for a heartbeat, you can create some quality space
