The debate about 12
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@mofitzy_ said in The debate about 12:
Different types of players. Conrad complimented Nonu perfectly, as an individual you might say BOD but the proof is the the pudding for the Nonu/Smith combination.
this 100%.
BOD > Smith, but Nonu+Smith>Daylight>anyone else
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@voodoo said in The debate about 12:
@sparky said in The debate about 12:
@pakman Would take Carter-Nonu-Snake ahead of that combo every day of the year.
I can only assume this is based on backing established combinations, because as much as I loved Conrad, he simply wasn't a patch on BOD. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise, no matter how much you might dislike him.
I always liked the bald Ozzie guy who played 13. Also that South African, the tall big French guy and the tall skinny English fella.
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@nzzp said in The debate about 12:
@mofitzy_ said in The debate about 12:
Different types of players. Conrad complimented Nonu perfectly, as an individual you might say BOD but the proof is the the pudding for the Nonu/Smith combination.
this 100%.
BOD > Smith, but Nonu+Smith>Daylight>anyone else
Broadly agree, but they always found De Villiers and Fourie a handful.
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@pakman said in The debate about 12:
Broadly agree, but they always found De Villiers and Fourie a handful.
Hell yes - but for how long? Longevity is one of those things that goes to a 'great'. Rupeni was incredible, but short career. Shane Bond was off the charts good, but injured and short career. BOD had the longevity and the talent, and with a consistent midfield partner could have formed a combo at that level
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@Snowy said in The debate about 12:
It is hypothetical - but would BOD have been even better playing outside Carter and Nonu? Along with the rest of an AB team of course. He probably would have.
That’s a good point. In the AB team in the years running up to the 2015 RWC you had world class players surrounded by more world class players. That has to bring the overall standard up. BOD for instance was often the star in a pretty dark surrounding sky.
Edit: His play in the 2001 Lions when he was surrounded by some other world class players, some of his work was sublime.
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@Catogrande said in The debate about 12:
@Snowy said in The debate about 12:
It is hypothetical - but would BOD have been even better playing outside Carter and Nonu? Along with the rest of an AB team of course. He probably would have.
That’s a good point. In the AB team in the years running up to the 2015 RWC you had world class players surrounded by more world class players. That has to bring the overall standard up. BOD for instance was often the star in a pretty dark surrounding sky.
Edit: His play in the 2001 Lions when he was surrounded by some other world class players, some of his work was sublime.
And pretty handy outside Jamie Roberts in 2009 Lions.
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Carter-Horan-Bunce for me.
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@mariner4life up until Nonu's last 2 seasons, Horan was always the clear best 12 to me, but those last 2 seasons of Nonu pushed him to at least alongside Horan, possibly even past.
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@taniwharugby said in The debate about 12:
@mariner4life up until Nonu's last 2 seasons, Horan was always the clear best 12 to me, but those last 2 seasons of Nonu pushed him to at least alongside Horan, possibly even past.
yep, agree. Nonu's peak was at least as good. No doubt. But Horan was pretty consistently excellent for a long time. So he stays in.
But as you say, it went from "no contest" to "bees dick".
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@Victor-Meldrew said in The debate about 12:
No problems we'll Tualigi.
Excellent, I now have a new verb to add to my rugby vocab.
Edit: but does that mean to act like a frenzied bull or jump off unsuitably fast objects in inappropriate places? -
@nostrildamus said in The debate about 12:
@Victor-Meldrew said in The debate about 12:
No problems we'll Tualigi.
Excellent, I now have a new verb to add to my rugby vocab.
Edit: but does that mean to act like a frenzied bull or jump off unsuitably fast objects in inappropriate places?it means "play 1 in every 4 games. at best"
aka tampon
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@nzzp said in The debate about 12:
@pakman said in The debate about 12:
Broadly agree, but they always found De Villiers and Fourie a handful.
Hell yes - but for how long? Longevity is one of those things that goes to a 'great'. Rupeni was incredible, but short career. Shane Bond was off the charts good, but injured and short career. BOD had the longevity and the talent, and with a consistent midfield partner could have formed a combo at that level
Gordon D’arcys test career forgotten just like that
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@MN5 said in The debate about 12:
@nzzp said in The debate about 12:
@pakman said in The debate about 12:
Broadly agree, but they always found De Villiers and Fourie a handful.
Hell yes - but for how long? Longevity is one of those things that goes to a 'great'. Rupeni was incredible, but short career. Shane Bond was off the charts good, but injured and short career. BOD had the longevity and the talent, and with a consistent midfield partner could have formed a combo at that level
Gordon D’arcys test career forgotten just like that
D’Arcy was a very good 12, and had excellent combo with BOD. Interesting that early on he was at 13 and BOD 12. But was poor in 2005 Lions and coaches wanted basher like Roberts to partner BOD in 2009.
Writes some interesting articles. -
@voodoo said in The debate about 12:
@sparky said in The debate about 12:
@pakman Would take Carter-Nonu-Snake ahead of that combo every day of the year.
I can only assume this is based on backing established combinations, because as much as I loved Conrad, he simply wasn't a patch on BOD. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise, no matter how much you might dislike him.
How drunk were you when you posted this? Conrad Smith not a patch on BOD? Righto...I know which is the ludicrous suggestion...
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@Bones said in The debate about 12:
@voodoo said in The debate about 12:
@sparky said in The debate about 12:
@pakman Would take Carter-Nonu-Snake ahead of that combo every day of the year.
I can only assume this is based on backing established combinations, because as much as I loved Conrad, he simply wasn't a patch on BOD. It's just ludicrous to suggest otherwise, no matter how much you might dislike him.
How drunk were you when you posted this? Conrad Smith not a patch on BOD? Righto...I know which is the ludicrous suggestion...
Really?
I absolutely LOVE Smith, amazing player over a long time for the ABs
But let's look at their records:
Smith played 94 tests over 11yrs, scored 130 points and straightened the line without fail, put a bunch of wingers away and was a defensive stalwart. Legend.
BOD played 133 times for Ireland, 83 times as captain, scored 245 points. Highest try scorer in their history. 4th most capped player in history. Played for the Lions 8 times (yes, thats 3 consecutive Lions tours).
Nominated for world player of the year 3 times, player of the 6n 3 times. Won World Rugby Player of the Decade for the 2000's.
So for the "career" award there is no contest.
Then you move to "who had the highest ceiling" in a single game/series as the other way to measure.
Again, I just can't see how you would pick Smith over him EXCEPT as a specific midfield partner to a certain player, like Nonu. But 9 times out of 10, BOD is going to be the better 13 than Smith in any given backline. He is without doubt a superior attacking player to Smith. Much better outside break, better pace, great swerve, amazing timing. Also a very good defender, maybe he isn't as hard a hitter or possibly as good an organiser as Smith, but certainly no slouch.
Its just not close for me.
Open to hearing your counter argument though mate.
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@voodoo for me it was your hyperbole that was plain wrong.
he simply wasn't a patch on BOD
Its just not close for me.
I dont see him being that clearly ahead.
If you go by numbers, man for man without looking at who plays at 11/12/14 to work with him, then yeah I could be convinced without being too bothered, but start putting a dream team together, I am less inclined to.
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@taniwharugby said in The debate about 12:
@voodoo for me it was your hyperbole that was plain wrong.
he simply wasn't a patch on BOD
Its just not close for me.
I dont see him being that clearly ahead.
If you go by numbers, man for man without looking at who plays at 11/12/14 to work with him, then yeah I could be convinced without being too bothered, but start putting a dream team together, I am less inclined to.
Fine, OK, its not like BOD was a 9 and Conrad a 6. It's more like a 9 and an 8.5, but i find it absurd that anyone would think the ratings could be reversed - does that make sense?
As an example, its like in the NBA Finals this season - Lebron was maybe only 5% better than Anthony Davis, but its such a clear 5%, that he was a unanimous choice for Finals MVP.
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@voodoo Cough. Cough. That’s four consecutive Lions tours, though likely one doesn’t count due to his premature death. But yes, I’m with you on BOD, the pre-eminent centre of his time. Some notable challengers for sure but as you say, that extra 5% is huge at that level.
