Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November
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@booboo said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
The Instagram post is indicative of a bit if a tood.
Ooh what did I miss?
@booboo said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
a lineout 30km out from our own line
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@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan our discipline on Saturday was better than the previous one, Argies were pinged more than us...and we didnt get any cards, so theres that
A good number of the Argies penalties came in the last few minutes...
To your earlier point, it’s hard to say if the the personnel is right given it’s been so up and down.
We’ve created chances but lacked class to finish off many of those. On the other hand we’ve given up easy metres in the middle of the park. Aaron Smith for example got exposed at a ruck which led to massive run. I can’t remember that happening to Smith for eons.
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@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Ok, last 30 rewatch.
Again, better than I expected, but SO annoying.
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50-53 Some good lineout work -- Savea!! -- and two good mauls lead to try. 10 - 19.
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BUT THEN After good Smith kick off return to halfway, Clarke marks poor Puma box kick, but, rather than tap and pass to BB/RM, kicks himself and gains 3m. From lineout one phase then Mo'unga is stupidly standing on 22 when ruck is 2m inside. ACTUAL offside line. In front. 10 -22 after 57.
That is very important because Pumas leaked plenty of penalties in their 22 in last 20. At 10 - 19 we take kick and one try to win. But now need two tries.
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At the 60 Pumas penalised on 22. Kick means lineout 10m out. UK coverage missed lineout but we lost it?
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Soon after a short kick from RM advances us to 22.
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At 63 JG off for DMac and Roane to 13. Play develops and Pumas knock on. Excellent scrum and Sotutu advances to 22, good ruck and overlap (photo to follow). RM-ALB-Roane, who drops ball with Clarke unmarked and one covering Puma to beat. Sure JG would have nailed that assist.
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Now 66 and good AB scrum. We regain possession and ALB makes good ground angling back close to ruck. Has another similar good dab shortly after RM grubber straight to Puma. Another penalty 40m out.
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71 ANOTHER penalty right in front of sticks Good scrum, excellent Sotutu break and pass which if it hits Dmac is try and if converted real chance of win. But if Sotutu had kept running also probably try, but easier conversion.
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73.30 ANOTHING FARKING PENALTY right in front. Scrum? No. Weber taps (tip from TJP?), turnover, kicked to halfway, dubious penalty from maul??, Sanchez kicks it. 10-25. GAME OVER.
In 15 minutes (58-73) we had at least two try scoring opportunites, numerous penalties in Puma half (some in 22), score NOTHING, and they get to halfway ONCE and steal 3!!!!
ABs did a lot right, but if chances aren't taken matches are lost.
Still not going just to blame Foster.
Some observations:
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ABs made chances and Puma gaps were exposed, despite mood of thread.
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Sotutu transformed ABs in loose.
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Savea good lineout option and seemed better at breakdown once Sotutu on.
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AB scrum with Moody/Taylor/Laulala in front row had edge on Puma starters.
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ALB footwork at 12 unlocked Puma defence. Pity JG couldn't have just swapped with him at the 68 mark!!!
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DMac added some spice.
I'm backing ABs to rebound very strongly in a fortnight...
Good analysis mate.
On Ardie, he always finishes the game stronger than he starts. He's fit as fuck and he excels when the big boys start to tire. Foster has to wear getting that selection repeatedly wrong; Sotutu looks made for test footy and Ardie is best used off the bench.
We certainly created some chances but we were panicked and made basic errors. Same as what happened against England, we finished the stronger but had to do too much and one penalty against the run of play killed us off.
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@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@westcoastie said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I missed the game on Saturday - what happened?
Was there even a game?I'm not going to read back through these posts. Its too depressing. For a long time, I felt our performance in the Lions First test was our template moving forward, now it looks more and more like an aberration. It now seems that we really can't look at in all the recent losses since the BIL & Chicago in isolation, because a pattern has formed, and we really have come back to the pack - which is great for World Rugby, shit for us.
Foster has to go.
RM is not the next Dan Carter, in fact, I think its probably been shown that BB is better behind a poor pack. RM has and does go missing when its not working in front of him. We have some issues, not just RM, but right through the whole team & culture. Time for change.
I hope Razor can fix them.RM is a big time downhill skier and he's shown that quite amply over the past couple of months. No ability or even willingness to try and impact the game when it's not being served up on a platter. I also wonder if he has a good enough kicking game to be steering this team around the park. This team is going to get beaten upfront fairly regularly it seems, so we need a 10 who can actually kick a ball in a way that's going to relieve pressure. I don't see that he has this ability.
He is one of many issues. After the Summer of rugby we've had from Henry and Hansen, this Winter is going to be cold and gloomy
Agreed, and I'm not saying that he is solely to blame for where the team currently sits. I'm just saying, with where this team is currently at, he might not actually be the best guy to be steering them around the park (and he's not even steering them to be accurate).
BB runs hot and cold too, not helped by being played at 15 by the Blues and ABs. Legitimate question, who would you pick?
I would pick BB there, TBH. I know he has his issues, but he is the best available option. He is probably our best player and so needs the ball in his hands more. He has a somewhat proven combination with A Smith. Also, he's clearly one of the leaders and decision-makers - he therefore needs to be in a position to effect these decisions. At the moment, I'm not sure we are getting that from RM.
There were a few moments late in the game where Beauden slotted himself at first receiver and Mo'unga was pushed out one. It didn't look particularly planned to me, more like a senior player trying to take control of the game. I've said it before but I absolutely do not believe Beauden is happy being shifted to 15 to accommodate an unproven rookie who keeps going missing when the going gets tough.
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@DMX said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@nzzp said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
- 73.30 ANOTHING FARKING PENALTY right in front. Scrum? No. Weber taps (tip from TJP?), turnover, kicked to halfway, dubious penalty from maul??, Sanchez kicks it. 10-25. GAME OVER.
I'm going in to bat for Weber on this one. To win that game, you need two tries, and the clock is against you. I can understand why you tap and go - try and keep the pace up, keep the Argies in oxygen deficit, and score quickly. So, I can understand the logic behind it, and it's not a horror decision.
I can also understand the kick to the corner and drive - but that did not work well for us in the game. We lost a lot of lineout ball.
BY this time we're chasing the game, too,
Thought the same when I saw it. Not only had we lost lineout ball but the every scrum was just taking an age.
Yeah, I didn't have a problem with a quick tap given the fluffing around at scrum time, but the issue was that it wasn't taken quickly enough and so we got no real advantage from taking that option.
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@No-Quarter said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@westcoastie said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I missed the game on Saturday - what happened?
Was there even a game?I'm not going to read back through these posts. Its too depressing. For a long time, I felt our performance in the Lions First test was our template moving forward, now it looks more and more like an aberration. It now seems that we really can't look at in all the recent losses since the BIL & Chicago in isolation, because a pattern has formed, and we really have come back to the pack - which is great for World Rugby, shit for us.
Foster has to go.
RM is not the next Dan Carter, in fact, I think its probably been shown that BB is better behind a poor pack. RM has and does go missing when its not working in front of him. We have some issues, not just RM, but right through the whole team & culture. Time for change.
I hope Razor can fix them.RM is a big time downhill skier and he's shown that quite amply over the past couple of months. No ability or even willingness to try and impact the game when it's not being served up on a platter. I also wonder if he has a good enough kicking game to be steering this team around the park. This team is going to get beaten upfront fairly regularly it seems, so we need a 10 who can actually kick a ball in a way that's going to relieve pressure. I don't see that he has this ability.
He is one of many issues. After the Summer of rugby we've had from Henry and Hansen, this Winter is going to be cold and gloomy
Agreed, and I'm not saying that he is solely to blame for where the team currently sits. I'm just saying, with where this team is currently at, he might not actually be the best guy to be steering them around the park (and he's not even steering them to be accurate).
BB runs hot and cold too, not helped by being played at 15 by the Blues and ABs. Legitimate question, who would you pick?
I would pick BB there, TBH. I know he has his issues, but he is the best available option. He is probably our best player and so needs the ball in his hands more. He has a somewhat proven combination with A Smith. Also, he's clearly one of the leaders and decision-makers - he therefore needs to be in a position to effect these decisions. At the moment, I'm not sure we are getting that from RM.
There were a few moments late in the game where Beauden slotted himself at first receiver and Mo'unga was pushed out one. It didn't look particularly planned to me, more like a senior player trying to take control of the game**. I've said it before but I absolutely do not believe Beauden is happy being shifted to 15** to accommodate an unproven rookie who keeps going missing when the going gets tough.
If he truly is happy, then he's not much of an athlete. First 5s are gonna first 5. They want the ball.
I think this type of attitude of fitting both in (i.e., potential resentment) could infect the team culture too. By choosing specialists, either Richie or Barrett would be banging on the selection door for every test.
If Cane had a bad game, we'd start asking questions about whether he should be put out to pasture.
We'd have better discussions about whether Goodhue or ALB should be there, as one of them would come off the bench and probably make an impact.
The team would pretty much pick itself too.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan our discipline on Saturday was better than the previous one, Argies were pinged more than us...and we didnt get any cards, so theres that
A good number of the Argies penalties came in the last few minutes...
To your earlier point, it’s hard to say if the the personnel is right given it’s been so up and down.
We’ve created chances but lacked class to finish off many of those. On the other hand we’ve given up easy metres in the middle of the park. Aaron Smith for example got exposed at a ruck which led to massive run. I can’t remember that happening to Smith for eons.
A lot of players guilty of ball watching at that ruck, but he was badly out of position which let his opposite with a clear run up field.
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@No-Quarter said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@westcoastie said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I missed the game on Saturday - what happened?
Was there even a game?I'm not going to read back through these posts. Its too depressing. For a long time, I felt our performance in the Lions First test was our template moving forward, now it looks more and more like an aberration. It now seems that we really can't look at in all the recent losses since the BIL & Chicago in isolation, because a pattern has formed, and we really have come back to the pack - which is great for World Rugby, shit for us.
Foster has to go.
RM is not the next Dan Carter, in fact, I think its probably been shown that BB is better behind a poor pack. RM has and does go missing when its not working in front of him. We have some issues, not just RM, but right through the whole team & culture. Time for change.
I hope Razor can fix them.RM is a big time downhill skier and he's shown that quite amply over the past couple of months. No ability or even willingness to try and impact the game when it's not being served up on a platter. I also wonder if he has a good enough kicking game to be steering this team around the park. This team is going to get beaten upfront fairly regularly it seems, so we need a 10 who can actually kick a ball in a way that's going to relieve pressure. I don't see that he has this ability.
He is one of many issues. After the Summer of rugby we've had from Henry and Hansen, this Winter is going to be cold and gloomy
Agreed, and I'm not saying that he is solely to blame for where the team currently sits. I'm just saying, with where this team is currently at, he might not actually be the best guy to be steering them around the park (and he's not even steering them to be accurate).
BB runs hot and cold too, not helped by being played at 15 by the Blues and ABs. Legitimate question, who would you pick?
I would pick BB there, TBH. I know he has his issues, but he is the best available option. He is probably our best player and so needs the ball in his hands more. He has a somewhat proven combination with A Smith. Also, he's clearly one of the leaders and decision-makers - he therefore needs to be in a position to effect these decisions. At the moment, I'm not sure we are getting that from RM.
There were a few moments late in the game where Beauden slotted himself at first receiver and Mo'unga was pushed out one. It didn't look particularly planned to me, more like a senior player trying to take control of the game. I've said it before but I absolutely do not believe Beauden is happy being shifted to 15 to accommodate an unproven rookie who keeps going missing when the going gets tough.
Unproven rookie? He has had 21 games for the All Blacks!
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I get this idea of a double playmaker but
a. it suggests the first playmaker can't do it on his own (unlike most if not all other int. teams) and
b. is BB the only one who can be a "playmaker" at 15?
(PS I'm not trying to pick on him, just asking). -
@nostrildamus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@No-Quarter said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@westcoastie said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I missed the game on Saturday - what happened?
Was there even a game?I'm not going to read back through these posts. Its too depressing. For a long time, I felt our performance in the Lions First test was our template moving forward, now it looks more and more like an aberration. It now seems that we really can't look at in all the recent losses since the BIL & Chicago in isolation, because a pattern has formed, and we really have come back to the pack - which is great for World Rugby, shit for us.
Foster has to go.
RM is not the next Dan Carter, in fact, I think its probably been shown that BB is better behind a poor pack. RM has and does go missing when its not working in front of him. We have some issues, not just RM, but right through the whole team & culture. Time for change.
I hope Razor can fix them.RM is a big time downhill skier and he's shown that quite amply over the past couple of months. No ability or even willingness to try and impact the game when it's not being served up on a platter. I also wonder if he has a good enough kicking game to be steering this team around the park. This team is going to get beaten upfront fairly regularly it seems, so we need a 10 who can actually kick a ball in a way that's going to relieve pressure. I don't see that he has this ability.
He is one of many issues. After the Summer of rugby we've had from Henry and Hansen, this Winter is going to be cold and gloomy
Agreed, and I'm not saying that he is solely to blame for where the team currently sits. I'm just saying, with where this team is currently at, he might not actually be the best guy to be steering them around the park (and he's not even steering them to be accurate).
BB runs hot and cold too, not helped by being played at 15 by the Blues and ABs. Legitimate question, who would you pick?
I would pick BB there, TBH. I know he has his issues, but he is the best available option. He is probably our best player and so needs the ball in his hands more. He has a somewhat proven combination with A Smith. Also, he's clearly one of the leaders and decision-makers - he therefore needs to be in a position to effect these decisions. At the moment, I'm not sure we are getting that from RM.
There were a few moments late in the game where Beauden slotted himself at first receiver and Mo'unga was pushed out one. It didn't look particularly planned to me, more like a senior player trying to take control of the game. I've said it before but I absolutely do not believe Beauden is happy being shifted to 15 to accommodate an unproven rookie who keeps going missing when the going gets tough.
Unproven rookie? He has had 21 games for the All Blacks!
Which makes it even worse
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you may have a good point there.
I'm a bit reckless, I'd keep midfield combinations but I'd rotate 10s. -
@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@booboo said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
The Instagram post is indicative of a bit if a tood.
Ooh what did I miss?
@booboo said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
a lineout 30km out from our own line
Posted a picture of himself scoring one handed in Sydney with the caption "you're welcome" as a bit of an up yours to us plans who questioned the Wellington fuck up. (Disclaimer, haven't seen it, only heard about it and if I knew how to internet I'd try and find it.)
And we're that bad at defending a rolling maul...
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@booboo said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Posted a picture of himself scoring one handed in Sydney with the caption "you're welcome" as a bit of an up yours to us plans who questioned the Wellington fuck up.
Uh right.
Did he post a picture of himself NOT diving on the ball as Argentina took possession right in front of him with "Sorry..." or not?
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@No-Quarter said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@westcoastie said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I missed the game on Saturday - what happened?
Was there even a game?I'm not going to read back through these posts. Its too depressing. For a long time, I felt our performance in the Lions First test was our template moving forward, now it looks more and more like an aberration. It now seems that we really can't look at in all the recent losses since the BIL & Chicago in isolation, because a pattern has formed, and we really have come back to the pack - which is great for World Rugby, shit for us.
Foster has to go.
RM is not the next Dan Carter, in fact, I think its probably been shown that BB is better behind a poor pack. RM has and does go missing when its not working in front of him. We have some issues, not just RM, but right through the whole team & culture. Time for change.
I hope Razor can fix them.RM is a big time downhill skier and he's shown that quite amply over the past couple of months. No ability or even willingness to try and impact the game when it's not being served up on a platter. I also wonder if he has a good enough kicking game to be steering this team around the park. This team is going to get beaten upfront fairly regularly it seems, so we need a 10 who can actually kick a ball in a way that's going to relieve pressure. I don't see that he has this ability.
He is one of many issues. After the Summer of rugby we've had from Henry and Hansen, this Winter is going to be cold and gloomy
Agreed, and I'm not saying that he is solely to blame for where the team currently sits. I'm just saying, with where this team is currently at, he might not actually be the best guy to be steering them around the park (and he's not even steering them to be accurate).
BB runs hot and cold too, not helped by being played at 15 by the Blues and ABs. Legitimate question, who would you pick?
I would pick BB there, TBH. I know he has his issues, but he is the best available option. He is probably our best player and so needs the ball in his hands more. He has a somewhat proven combination with A Smith. Also, he's clearly one of the leaders and decision-makers - he therefore needs to be in a position to effect these decisions. At the moment, I'm not sure we are getting that from RM.
There were a few moments late in the game where Beauden slotted himself at first receiver and Mo'unga was pushed out one. It didn't look particularly planned to me, more like a senior player trying to take control of the game. I've said it before but I absolutely do not believe Beauden is happy being shifted to 15 to accommodate an unproven rookie who keeps going missing when the going gets tough.
that doesn't sound good to me...throws out everyone outside him, RM basically becomes a 12...are we happy with him at 12?
@nostrildamus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I get this idea of a double playmaker but
a. it suggests the first playmaker can't do it on his own (unlike most if not all other int. teams) and
b. is BB the only one who can be a "playmaker" at 15?
(PS I'm not trying to pick on him, just asking).i get the idea of a double play maker when theyre going different ways for example, midfield scrum..."which way will they go?"...or defensive, you need multiple kicking options....not when the 15 just slots in at 10 because he want a go
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@No-Quarter said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@westcoastie said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I missed the game on Saturday - what happened?
Was there even a game?I'm not going to read back through these posts. Its too depressing. For a long time, I felt our performance in the Lions First test was our template moving forward, now it looks more and more like an aberration. It now seems that we really can't look at in all the recent losses since the BIL & Chicago in isolation, because a pattern has formed, and we really have come back to the pack - which is great for World Rugby, shit for us.
Foster has to go.
RM is not the next Dan Carter, in fact, I think its probably been shown that BB is better behind a poor pack. RM has and does go missing when its not working in front of him. We have some issues, not just RM, but right through the whole team & culture. Time for change.
I hope Razor can fix them.RM is a big time downhill skier and he's shown that quite amply over the past couple of months. No ability or even willingness to try and impact the game when it's not being served up on a platter. I also wonder if he has a good enough kicking game to be steering this team around the park. This team is going to get beaten upfront fairly regularly it seems, so we need a 10 who can actually kick a ball in a way that's going to relieve pressure. I don't see that he has this ability.
He is one of many issues. After the Summer of rugby we've had from Henry and Hansen, this Winter is going to be cold and gloomy
Agreed, and I'm not saying that he is solely to blame for where the team currently sits. I'm just saying, with where this team is currently at, he might not actually be the best guy to be steering them around the park (and he's not even steering them to be accurate).
BB runs hot and cold too, not helped by being played at 15 by the Blues and ABs. Legitimate question, who would you pick?
I would pick BB there, TBH. I know he has his issues, but he is the best available option. He is probably our best player and so needs the ball in his hands more. He has a somewhat proven combination with A Smith. Also, he's clearly one of the leaders and decision-makers - he therefore needs to be in a position to effect these decisions. At the moment, I'm not sure we are getting that from RM.
There were a few moments late in the game where Beauden slotted himself at first receiver and Mo'unga was pushed out one. It didn't look particularly planned to me, more like a senior player trying to take control of the game. I've said it before but I absolutely do not believe Beauden is happy being shifted to 15 to accommodate an unproven rookie who keeps going missing when the going gets tough.
Beauden gets shifted because he's probably a better fullback than he is a 10. He got shifted at the Blues too.
They've said numerous times and it is common knowledge that they want the two playmakers, so there is nothing at all strange about him coming in to 1st receiver, hes not doing it because hes having a sulk. if anything he should be doing it more. -
@Kiwiwomble 15s coming into the line to create the extra man has always been a thing. It's just as valid to do that by coming in at 10 and pushing the others out as by looming up on the outside. Even more so if you have played a bit of 10 and can pass.
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@nostrildamus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I get this idea of a double playmaker but
a. it suggests the first playmaker can't do it on his own (unlike most if not all other int. teams) andNot everyone is Dan Carter, of course.
And you might be forgetting he played with a few capable second fives - occasionally standing at 12 himself - in a dual playmaker setup. I believe his first few seasons at the crusaders he was 12 to Mehrts' 10
There's a reason Kiwis call 12 a second five and not inside centre.
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@reprobate said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Kiwiwomble 15s coming into the line to create the extra man has always been a thing. It's just as valid to do that by coming in at 10 and pushing the others out as by looming up on the outside. Even more so if you have played a bit of 10 and can pass.
i understand running into the line, but that normally happens further out and so can catch a defensive line with a kick when they have already come up or just an extra body on a defensive line that might be trying to force inwards
Just coming up at first receiver, so basically a 10 playing at 10...isn't any different than if RM had just stayed there except your basically told him BB's better and now everyone is out of position at the start of the play
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@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@nostrildamus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I get this idea of a double playmaker but
a. it suggests the first playmaker can't do it on his own (unlike most if not all other int. teams) andNot everyone is Dan Carter, of course.
And you might be forgetting he played with a few capable second fives - occasionally standing at 12 himself - in a dual playmaker setup. I believe his first few seasons at the crusaders he was 12 to Mehrts' 10
There's a reason Kiwis call 12 a second five and not inside centre.
A good argument for moving JB to 2nd five would be that we could have a 2nd playmaker involved more often as he could use many of his tools in that role, and his size as an inside center when required.
