Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November
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@canefan our discipline on Saturday was better than the previous one, Argies were pinged more than us...and we didnt get any cards, so theres that
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@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan our discipline on Saturday was better than the previous one, Argies were pinged more than us...and we didnt get any cards, so theres that
I had to stop watching after 25 minutes and once I learned the result I never bothered to watch the rest, so I'll take your word for it
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@Unite said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Somewhat interesting that the last time the All Blacks nearly lost to Argentina it was Scott Robertson that saved them.
at least they had the excuse of last game of the season and being out on the diesel all week. Not so much this time.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
PUJ had some defensive deficiencies previously in Super Rugby. Not sure we have seen enough of him to know if they have been sorted.
People say this about Jordan too but can't say I've noticed it, so is it really that bad? Because I'm definitely noticing defensive and attacking deficiencies of those there at the moment.
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Currently in a debate on another forum, apparently when coles gave that guy a wee slap it was all his fault for starting something....and when frizell got shoved in the face he was to blame because he retaliated...and it’s all made doubly worse because they slapped rather than shoved which is inherently more disrespectful...which is something the abs have always been...disrespectful to anyone the player...man there are people out there that really don’t like us...we’re bad losers, bad winners and when we draw we’re just disrespectful
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Deep breath.
Been avoiding this thread since half time on Saturday as I'm sure it's all been analysed far more expertly and written far more eloquently than I could manage.
Have not read this thread (kinda glanced over some of the others) and it probably take me all week to read all of this. But will share thoughts regardless.
What would have been funny is recording Mrs Boo's watching experience. Didn't get that potty mouth from me.
Anyway, at that stage in the thread I was angry with both our idiot fumble fingered directionless passive lumps of lard and Angus Gardner.
I don't like having a crack at refs (but I still do it) but I'll give myself leave to have a shot at Angus who was awful in that first half. He got gamed by the Argies and should have pinged them from that first argument where Sanchez whined and whinged.
It went too far and deserved a rebuke.
Then he got suckered by their niggle and our stoopid stoopid reaction to it. Not sure who was dumber, Angus or Coles and Frizzel.
So he settled into the mindset of if the ABs look like they're infringing they are. The Jordie "late charge" was just ridiculous.
But I'm not here to whinge about Angus, as his level of dumb was steadily overtaken by us as the game wore on. However I do have to say he contributed to their lead which forced us into catch up footy. But we overshadowed him in contributing to our own demise.
Lots to complain about, but mostly our lack of go forward. And ball skills.
Random thoughts follow.
I really worry about the effectiveness of our tight five. We just weren't getting over the advantage line.
Sam W was Sam W, but the rest were kind of ineffectual.
We seem to have overrated SRA. Paddy T ( huge fan) had not delivered in tests.
We looked small. Since when? Missed the "pack weight" graphic. IIRC correctly the first scrum was waaay into the game so we may all have missed it. (Was I right in thinking it was 30 odd minutes in? Or did I just miss it?).
Argues gamedvthe ref (see above). Kudos.
Wherever we were trying to hit it up/Take it into contact they read us I said at half time that I felt we were running big guys into the 13 channel, and that there seemed to be more space wider. I'm not talking trying to shift it to the winger to score off first phase. I'm talking about finding somewhere where we can get over the gain line. Thought we either had to do that really close, or really wide.
Maybe some inside balls would be good.
Not convinced about our kicking. To my mind you either belt the living daylights out of it or just don't. Keep it in hand. Forget box kicking it achieves nothing for us.
I agree with @gt12 about just picking one. Pick Sam. Pick specialist (and very talented Sotutu at) 8. And even though Frizzell was much more effective that previously, puck the best 6, Ioane, at 6. Ardie comes off the bench.
Would have preferred Beaudy at 10, Jordie at 15, but realistically 10/15 of either RM/BB or BB/JB should do the job.
12 and 13 are round the wrong way.
Reiko should start on the wing. Either. And, despite being a massive fanboi, I think he needs to reign it in just a tad. The Instagram post is indicative of a bit if a tood.
In all of that, I think our backs are close, but our forwards really need to find their mojo.
Also, her resembled Australia with the amount of dropped ball.
And finally ... I started a bit of a rant last week post Brisbane, about conceding penalties. Just don't! If we get isolated release the fucking ball. Conceding possession and 30m-40m of territory is not worth it. Let them have it and work hard for the territory. So often we give away a penalty on attack, nay the 22, and find ourselves conceding points from a lineout 30km out from our own line. Stop it.
Have to say I was not convinced by Bled 2 and 3. Despite the record score in 3 we stopped playing for 30minutes.
I really want Fozzie to succeed. He is the All Black coach after all. And we're guaranteed him until this time next year (so stop the whinging). But I understand the reservations.
So much for "I'll just do a short post then flick through the thread". I'm sure this has all been said. But I restart the read from half time and catch up with you all in about a week.
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@booboo said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
The Instagram post is indicative of a bit if a tood.
Ooh what did I miss?
@booboo said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
a lineout 30km out from our own line
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@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan our discipline on Saturday was better than the previous one, Argies were pinged more than us...and we didnt get any cards, so theres that
A good number of the Argies penalties came in the last few minutes...
To your earlier point, it’s hard to say if the the personnel is right given it’s been so up and down.
We’ve created chances but lacked class to finish off many of those. On the other hand we’ve given up easy metres in the middle of the park. Aaron Smith for example got exposed at a ruck which led to massive run. I can’t remember that happening to Smith for eons.
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@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Ok, last 30 rewatch.
Again, better than I expected, but SO annoying.
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50-53 Some good lineout work -- Savea!! -- and two good mauls lead to try. 10 - 19.
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BUT THEN After good Smith kick off return to halfway, Clarke marks poor Puma box kick, but, rather than tap and pass to BB/RM, kicks himself and gains 3m. From lineout one phase then Mo'unga is stupidly standing on 22 when ruck is 2m inside. ACTUAL offside line. In front. 10 -22 after 57.
That is very important because Pumas leaked plenty of penalties in their 22 in last 20. At 10 - 19 we take kick and one try to win. But now need two tries.
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At the 60 Pumas penalised on 22. Kick means lineout 10m out. UK coverage missed lineout but we lost it?
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Soon after a short kick from RM advances us to 22.
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At 63 JG off for DMac and Roane to 13. Play develops and Pumas knock on. Excellent scrum and Sotutu advances to 22, good ruck and overlap (photo to follow). RM-ALB-Roane, who drops ball with Clarke unmarked and one covering Puma to beat. Sure JG would have nailed that assist.
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Now 66 and good AB scrum. We regain possession and ALB makes good ground angling back close to ruck. Has another similar good dab shortly after RM grubber straight to Puma. Another penalty 40m out.
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71 ANOTHER penalty right in front of sticks Good scrum, excellent Sotutu break and pass which if it hits Dmac is try and if converted real chance of win. But if Sotutu had kept running also probably try, but easier conversion.
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73.30 ANOTHING FARKING PENALTY right in front. Scrum? No. Weber taps (tip from TJP?), turnover, kicked to halfway, dubious penalty from maul??, Sanchez kicks it. 10-25. GAME OVER.
In 15 minutes (58-73) we had at least two try scoring opportunites, numerous penalties in Puma half (some in 22), score NOTHING, and they get to halfway ONCE and steal 3!!!!
ABs did a lot right, but if chances aren't taken matches are lost.
Still not going just to blame Foster.
Some observations:
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ABs made chances and Puma gaps were exposed, despite mood of thread.
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Sotutu transformed ABs in loose.
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Savea good lineout option and seemed better at breakdown once Sotutu on.
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AB scrum with Moody/Taylor/Laulala in front row had edge on Puma starters.
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ALB footwork at 12 unlocked Puma defence. Pity JG couldn't have just swapped with him at the 68 mark!!!
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DMac added some spice.
I'm backing ABs to rebound very strongly in a fortnight...
Good analysis mate.
On Ardie, he always finishes the game stronger than he starts. He's fit as fuck and he excels when the big boys start to tire. Foster has to wear getting that selection repeatedly wrong; Sotutu looks made for test footy and Ardie is best used off the bench.
We certainly created some chances but we were panicked and made basic errors. Same as what happened against England, we finished the stronger but had to do too much and one penalty against the run of play killed us off.
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@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@westcoastie said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I missed the game on Saturday - what happened?
Was there even a game?I'm not going to read back through these posts. Its too depressing. For a long time, I felt our performance in the Lions First test was our template moving forward, now it looks more and more like an aberration. It now seems that we really can't look at in all the recent losses since the BIL & Chicago in isolation, because a pattern has formed, and we really have come back to the pack - which is great for World Rugby, shit for us.
Foster has to go.
RM is not the next Dan Carter, in fact, I think its probably been shown that BB is better behind a poor pack. RM has and does go missing when its not working in front of him. We have some issues, not just RM, but right through the whole team & culture. Time for change.
I hope Razor can fix them.RM is a big time downhill skier and he's shown that quite amply over the past couple of months. No ability or even willingness to try and impact the game when it's not being served up on a platter. I also wonder if he has a good enough kicking game to be steering this team around the park. This team is going to get beaten upfront fairly regularly it seems, so we need a 10 who can actually kick a ball in a way that's going to relieve pressure. I don't see that he has this ability.
He is one of many issues. After the Summer of rugby we've had from Henry and Hansen, this Winter is going to be cold and gloomy
Agreed, and I'm not saying that he is solely to blame for where the team currently sits. I'm just saying, with where this team is currently at, he might not actually be the best guy to be steering them around the park (and he's not even steering them to be accurate).
BB runs hot and cold too, not helped by being played at 15 by the Blues and ABs. Legitimate question, who would you pick?
I would pick BB there, TBH. I know he has his issues, but he is the best available option. He is probably our best player and so needs the ball in his hands more. He has a somewhat proven combination with A Smith. Also, he's clearly one of the leaders and decision-makers - he therefore needs to be in a position to effect these decisions. At the moment, I'm not sure we are getting that from RM.
There were a few moments late in the game where Beauden slotted himself at first receiver and Mo'unga was pushed out one. It didn't look particularly planned to me, more like a senior player trying to take control of the game. I've said it before but I absolutely do not believe Beauden is happy being shifted to 15 to accommodate an unproven rookie who keeps going missing when the going gets tough.
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@DMX said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@nzzp said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
- 73.30 ANOTHING FARKING PENALTY right in front. Scrum? No. Weber taps (tip from TJP?), turnover, kicked to halfway, dubious penalty from maul??, Sanchez kicks it. 10-25. GAME OVER.
I'm going in to bat for Weber on this one. To win that game, you need two tries, and the clock is against you. I can understand why you tap and go - try and keep the pace up, keep the Argies in oxygen deficit, and score quickly. So, I can understand the logic behind it, and it's not a horror decision.
I can also understand the kick to the corner and drive - but that did not work well for us in the game. We lost a lot of lineout ball.
BY this time we're chasing the game, too,
Thought the same when I saw it. Not only had we lost lineout ball but the every scrum was just taking an age.
Yeah, I didn't have a problem with a quick tap given the fluffing around at scrum time, but the issue was that it wasn't taken quickly enough and so we got no real advantage from taking that option.
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@No-Quarter said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@junior said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@westcoastie said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I missed the game on Saturday - what happened?
Was there even a game?I'm not going to read back through these posts. Its too depressing. For a long time, I felt our performance in the Lions First test was our template moving forward, now it looks more and more like an aberration. It now seems that we really can't look at in all the recent losses since the BIL & Chicago in isolation, because a pattern has formed, and we really have come back to the pack - which is great for World Rugby, shit for us.
Foster has to go.
RM is not the next Dan Carter, in fact, I think its probably been shown that BB is better behind a poor pack. RM has and does go missing when its not working in front of him. We have some issues, not just RM, but right through the whole team & culture. Time for change.
I hope Razor can fix them.RM is a big time downhill skier and he's shown that quite amply over the past couple of months. No ability or even willingness to try and impact the game when it's not being served up on a platter. I also wonder if he has a good enough kicking game to be steering this team around the park. This team is going to get beaten upfront fairly regularly it seems, so we need a 10 who can actually kick a ball in a way that's going to relieve pressure. I don't see that he has this ability.
He is one of many issues. After the Summer of rugby we've had from Henry and Hansen, this Winter is going to be cold and gloomy
Agreed, and I'm not saying that he is solely to blame for where the team currently sits. I'm just saying, with where this team is currently at, he might not actually be the best guy to be steering them around the park (and he's not even steering them to be accurate).
BB runs hot and cold too, not helped by being played at 15 by the Blues and ABs. Legitimate question, who would you pick?
I would pick BB there, TBH. I know he has his issues, but he is the best available option. He is probably our best player and so needs the ball in his hands more. He has a somewhat proven combination with A Smith. Also, he's clearly one of the leaders and decision-makers - he therefore needs to be in a position to effect these decisions. At the moment, I'm not sure we are getting that from RM.
There were a few moments late in the game where Beauden slotted himself at first receiver and Mo'unga was pushed out one. It didn't look particularly planned to me, more like a senior player trying to take control of the game**. I've said it before but I absolutely do not believe Beauden is happy being shifted to 15** to accommodate an unproven rookie who keeps going missing when the going gets tough.
If he truly is happy, then he's not much of an athlete. First 5s are gonna first 5. They want the ball.
I think this type of attitude of fitting both in (i.e., potential resentment) could infect the team culture too. By choosing specialists, either Richie or Barrett would be banging on the selection door for every test.
If Cane had a bad game, we'd start asking questions about whether he should be put out to pasture.
We'd have better discussions about whether Goodhue or ALB should be there, as one of them would come off the bench and probably make an impact.
The team would pretty much pick itself too.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@canefan our discipline on Saturday was better than the previous one, Argies were pinged more than us...and we didnt get any cards, so theres that
A good number of the Argies penalties came in the last few minutes...
To your earlier point, it’s hard to say if the the personnel is right given it’s been so up and down.
We’ve created chances but lacked class to finish off many of those. On the other hand we’ve given up easy metres in the middle of the park. Aaron Smith for example got exposed at a ruck which led to massive run. I can’t remember that happening to Smith for eons.
A lot of players guilty of ball watching at that ruck, but he was badly out of position which let his opposite with a clear run up field.
