Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November
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@JC said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Well with the benefit of some space here’s my take.
The ABs have been riding their luck for a while now against a rush defence, with the theory being (as I understand it) that as defences tire you get misalignment because it becomes increasingly difficult for the big forwards to move up at pace while staying aligned with the backs. Then take advantage of the small misalignments to breach the d line.
In practice that worked too, which may be why we saw points coming in the 3rd quarter, the ABs made the oppo make tackles and tired out their forwards earlier in the game, then when the subs come on for the oppo it’s too late because they’re now playing catch-up and they have a different problem.
But all that is based on the AB doing their jobs really well. Good body position taking the tackle, good handling and great cleanouts to force the defence to move. Instead though we’ve now got slow and unreliable breakdowns so by the time the halfback has cleared the ball the rush has had plenty of time to align. As oppositions get fitter it becomes even harder manipulate the line.
I’m interested to know what Foster’s plan is now. The players obviously know their jobs but they aren’t executing. Sam Whitelock on his own isn’t going to secure quick ball for 80 minutes. And press conferences aren’t going to fix that, coaching is. But I haven’t seen any evidence of coaching happening.
If all you have to do to be AB coach now is selection then I’ll have a go. After all it seems you don’t have to actually win. I reckon I can do a selection conference then a post match where I can say the players didn’t execute. After all they’ve already fucked the legacy so I don’t have to worry about that.
probably more pick and goes up the guts to get the defensive line continually moving backwards and re-learning how to hand off the ball in the tackle rather than aimlessly throwing it back for defensive players to pounce on
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@Nevorian not sure more pick and goes works against a defensive line that is working as one...you need to be more creative, go 2 wide, then pick and go, go the other way 2 wide, then 1 off, instead we just kept hammering away, rinse repeat
We are not pressuring the defence to make decisions (do I slide, go forward, drop back, shit my mate has drifted, where is the ball going) we are just asking them to make tackles without much movement or doubt as to who they need to tackle
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@raznomore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Mo’unga was rubbish yesterday.
Agree. Mo’unga seems to need a dominate forward pack otherwise he rubbish
And BB was rubbish last week. The result. 2 lossesMy view is one should start and the other should be in the reserves. So say if Mo’unga starts and is playing like crap then take him off. To replace with a 1st 5 not someones whose been pissed around in two positions. But mainly at FB
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@Winger said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@raznomore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Mo’unga was rubbish yesterday.
Agree. Mo’unga seems to need a dominate forward pack otherwise he rubbish
And BB was rubbish last week. The result. 2 lossesMy view is one should start and the other should be in the reserves. So say if Mo’unga starts and is playing like crap then take him off. To replace with a 1st 5 not someones whose been pissed around in two positions. But mainly at FB
Beauden's play at first 5 isn't going to improve more by being on the bench than it is by playing fullback with plenty of opportunity in the first receiver role.
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@reprobate said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Beauden's play at first 5 isn't going to improve
Based on last week its not improving playing at FB. And the team needs another option at 1st
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No first-five is going to play well unless he has some kind of forward pack in front of him.
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@raznomore BB's game management was always fickle.
Coles did have a time he controlled himself and he is still a form hooker but needs to be left out to cool down. Senior players need to fight for their place.I agree with the captaincy issue you raise. Cantabs can say better than I can, but I don't think SW would be a too quiet captain. There is one other option and that is A Smith. He would not be quiet but would he be a good captain?
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Well, late to the thread. By crikey that was an annoying loss. The thing that really stands out for me, and leaves me furious, is that we didn't make Argentina create much to soundly beat us.
What we're seeing is what we feared with Foster - poor selections, and very little quality coaching. He's hell bent on getting what he sees as the best XV players out there, no matter whether they are specialists or not. Savea/Can, and ALB/Goodhue are the obvious ones, but we're also playing a heffalump at 14 and not giving him the kicks or allwoing him to contest in the air. It's insane - we trade off the speed and agility of a winger to get a big, strong, tall kicker, adn don't use his strengths.
Going back to the Argies, well done lads. You tackled your guts out, created a try with a moment of chaos, and took all the possession and territory we gifted you on a platter. Fair play, straigh up dominated us around the paddock.
Offensively we struggled, again, and just can't seem to actually understand how to break down a defence to create space outside. Goddamn I'm frustrated about this.
Finally, the thing that pushes the coaching concern for me is how players go the longer they spend in camp. Right now, you are seeing good players look headless or lost (TJP as an example), and just not improving the way they used to.
All in all, and I don't say this lightly, Foster should fall on his sword. If you can't get the team up afte rlosing last week, when and how the hella re you going to do that. Roll on 2021, because 2020 is a year to forget.
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@mariner4life said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Y'all motherfuckers ready to listen to me yet?
I've been a devout follower of your gospel for a while now. As a seasoned and traumatised Chiefs fan you have the experience to see the patterns unfolding and predict what will come should we continue down this road.
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As I said before, there has been no change in game plan from the old version. The rugby world has countered the 2015 game plan, packed up, moved on, and left the ABs behind to reflect on their golden age.
The Agies knew there wouldn't be hard yards made up the middle so they just committed one or two to the breakdown, spread out and waited for the inevitable pod system crash ball. So predictable and easy pickings. I will have to watch again but it seemed that the game was a bit weird, it lacked a traditional forward contest. There were few actual real contests of eight on eight fighting for every inch and dominance. Putting the ball in front of the forwards and carve off some territory by kicking to the corners etc, etc. Nothing resembling any type of game plan except an actual stricter version of the failed old one. -
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@Rapido said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Wow. Congratulations Argentina. Never would have picked this, with the covid impacted build up for them.
I think it was good for them. It was like aRWC build up, sad I mentioned pre match. A lot of time together, a couple of minutes games to warm up, then an ambush Vs ABs
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@Machpants said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I think it was good for them.
Yeah, I thought that too.
Watching us smash ourselves around in SRA, then against the Aussies for weeks and weeks.
They had rested bodies (and minds) and been doing the training, were clearly fit. We looked flat and tired.No excuses there though. They were better than us and if you can't lift for a test you shouldn't be on the field (I might still be a little grumpy).
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@Machpants said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Rapido said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Wow. Congratulations Argentina. Never would have picked this, with the covid impacted build up for them.
I think it was good for them. It was like aRWC build up, sad I mentioned pre match. A lot of time together, a couple of minutes games to warm up, then an ambush Vs ABs
Assuming all 12 of them made good recoveries. The NBA experience was the total opposite, the guys that caught it never quite recovered,Westbrook a great example. Wonder there is something in the way Covid hits your aerobic/aerobic efforts.
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@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@raznomore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
The scrum got eaten yesterday. This is something we have been extremely strong in for a number of years now. So why have we suddenly gone backwards? I’m a fucken winger so can a prop explain it to me please. Redbeard was always good for that.
I think its down to your second row inconsistency. When you've got BBBR or Thorn pushing it is a markedly different prospect to Whitelock (who is no slouch) and almost anyone else available ATM. Throw in Whitelock having a couple of up and down performances, and swapping combinations through selection.
Our lineout is consistently the best or in and around the best, year in year out. But not last night.
It wasn't great last week either. Camped on the Wallaby line at the end of the first half and then got picked off. Again: consistency.
Don’t know what you think, but seems to me that some locks are better on TH — BBBR, Romano, Thorn, Kruis, etc. and others LH — Whitelock, Barrett and Itoje. So ABs have Whitelock at TH, which isn’t his best side and Patty T, which despite being very powerful never seems to transfer it to scrum time. Add in a couple of novice props and one hooker who isn’t known for his scrummaging and you’ve got a fairly so so set up.
Exactly - just like props are becoming specialists, locks have their role to play as well. If you've not played a lot of TH lock you don't have the same muscle memory and instinct for it. To be able to adjust angles and directions in the moment becomes problematic. In a split second you can find yourself in all sorts of trouble, and then people start thinking which leads to trouble
I go back (again) to the example of my club. Playing TH Prop in front of one guy who knew what he was doing was very different to playing in front of another guy who was bigger, stronger, and a better ball runner, but wasn't used to the position.
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@voodoo said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Machpants said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Rapido said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Wow. Congratulations Argentina. Never would have picked this, with the covid impacted build up for them.
I think it was good for them. It was like aRWC build up, sad I mentioned pre match. A lot of time together, a couple of minutes games to warm up, then an ambush Vs ABs
Assuming all 12 of them made good recoveries. The NBA experience was the total opposite, the guys that caught it never quite recovered,Westbrook a great example. Wonder there is something in the way Covid hits your aerobic/aerobic efforts.
Actually, fuck this. Calling Covid an advantage to them is a massive cop out (not saying anyone has actually said its the reason they won).
It was a huge disruption to them, their training and their prep. Conversely we had a fine prep, had well rested guys this week, and 2 massive mental reasons to get up having lost last week and having never lost to the steak-eaters.
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all this talk of Hart and Mains, I reckon Fozzie got his hands on Mains gameplan from the 1995 RWC...pass it to #11
sadly 14 runs for 65m showed we didnt create the space for him to run with as well.
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@Tim said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
This reminds me of 1999 through 2003. When the "powder puff forwards" stereotype was accurate.
Back then we were not at our best in Super Rugby too though, partly for that reason.
Now we carve up consistently in SR. NZ forwards seem strong enough in general.
I reckon a change of coaching staff and suddenly our "powder puff forwards" will be strangely able to do the business.
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@Chester-Draws Super Rugby depth, especially in SA and Oz, has been pretty weak in recent year though.
