Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November
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@gt12 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
This might make me feel better,
but it doesn't. One sentence jumps out, "this loss is going to hurt".
How about the fucking loss last week you fucking bunch of social media abusing toolboxes?
How about “the preparation was good”.
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@DMX
We are going off topic.That's kinda what I meant when I said we don't see his best because of the way Kolisi is used with the Springbok. They try and and use him in the Read role, but at his best he plays like a smaller faster Kaino.
Problem with Kolisi is that, unless he is good form, he doesn't have the volume of work and that is where Cane beats him most days.
When in form though and playing in middle of the park he does things that Cane can't and Vermeulen is miles better than Cane in the same role.
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I've overslept kickoff, so only saw 2nd half.
It was shit. Argentina were pretty good.
It reminded me of the 2019 RWC semi, where I felt from early on that the ABs don't really seem to stand a chance but usually they still somehow squeeze out a win through one or two really late, incredible end-of-field-tries. Not anymore. It's tough when you've gotten used to this incredible period of dominance from the ABs from 2010 until about 2017 (in retrospect, the BIL tour seemed to me as the turning point, never would I ever have guessed that the ABs wouldn't comprehensively win the series). Anyways, maybe this shit the ABs served up for the last two games makes you appreciate them playing well a bit more, as you can no longer file that under "as expected"
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@SidBarret said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@DMX
We are going off topic.That's kinda what I meant when I said we don't see his best because of the way Kolisi is used with the Springbok. They try and and use him in the Read role, but at his best he plays like a smaller faster Kaino.
Problem with Kolisi is that, unless he is good form, he doesn't have the volume of work and that is where Cane beats him most days.
When in form though and playing in middle of the park he does things that Cane can't and Vermeulen is miles better than Cane in the same role.
I like Kolisi , but just think the who would make a Boks XV topic does not make much sesnse. Kolisi/Steph Dutoit/ Vermulen are very effective even though kolisi gets pulled pretty early. The last two times we played them there honestly was not much between our packs, I probably would give the ABs the edge and it was not because of Cane. Read was probably the weak link. Now I don't know why but we seem to have many of our same players underperforming but I don't know that you can assume Boks would not also underperform if they had come over as well.
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@DMX you're right, the topic is Arg V nz, so comparing SA to NZ is pretty irrelavent. But asking how far some NZ players are from the pointy end of player available globally is kinda relevant.
I am not sure about the balance of the NZ backrow. Is Savea the right guy for the loose loose forward role? Are NZ getting enough out of their frontrow in the loose to justify the risks in tight? What happened to Paddy's form from SRA?
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Thoughts from a rewatch of first 50. In some ways not a bad as I thought, in others much worse. Based on first 50 don't think it is fair to blame Foster for everything.
Anyhow:
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ABs actually did quite a lot well, without doing anything extraordinary.
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Trouble is it seems there was a 5 minute outbreak of brain fade amongst ABs which, by giving away stupid penalties, relieved pressure on Pumas and in some cases also led to points.
Cole slap penalty reversal 24
Jordie no arms 25
Frizell illegal cleanout 28
Savea comes round ruck thinking ball out 29WTF!!!!
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The last of these nearly conceded a try, and then when Puma TH dropped left shoulder and bored in Moody penalised for dropping bind, which, given he was by then pushing on TH hip, was ludicrous. 3 points.
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Even then there was some light (albeit what seemed minutes lost for kick/kick off/another scrum (this time where Puma TH penalised for same thing)) and then Mo'unga overdoes kick to touch. Another scrum and half time at 16-3. It could/should have been 13-3/16-8.
Then in first 10 of second:
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AB backline runs move for what looks like first time ever and Jordie knocks on.
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Things led to another scrum in front of Puma sticks and Puma LH drags down on Lomax's jersey and he eventually goes to ground. Gardner penalises ABs, when it should have been other way around.
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To make matters worse, from lineout Puma maul draws penalty, then another stupid one from Goodhue, and hey presto it's 19-3 instead of 16-6. Huge difference at that stage.
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Last act of 50, ABs lose lineout on own throw.
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AB players need to take ownership for stupid acts of self sabotage, which made Pumas look considerably better than they probably were. That said, they could only play what was in front of them, which was a bit of a rabble.
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
More's the pity, because I think if ABs had focussed on maintaining the pressure the signs are the points would have come.
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@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I would love to hear what BB really thinks of Foster and what has happened the last few years. I have a sneaking suspicion behind closed doors he thinks foster is a fluffybunny. This no doubt creeps into the culture of players etc and may help explain why he has just been off for some time.
Huh? He's only ever played with Foster as a coach hasn't he?
I think he has a lot of experience under a lot of different coaches so would be well placed to be an accurate judge of Foster's skills. The senior players would all have an opinion on what went wrong. Surely many of them can see the issues we are seeing.
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I got very drunk during the game and fell asleep not long after. So I’m up at 4:30am on a Sunday
We were soundly beaten by a better team. They looked better conditioned from the start to about the 66 minute. They were physically and tactically stronger than us. They played territory to close out the game and defended like demons for 80 min. It’s hard to say this but I stopped thinking we could win at half time. I just didn’t see anyone on the field that could turn it around. No one. We do not have someone that can take over a game anymore. BB looks like he can still hit a gap and pull out some freakish plays. But the time spent switching between positions has affected his game management. It’s all a bit predictable now.
Mo’unga was rubbish yesterday. He played so casually like the game wasn’t hanging in the balance. That’s a good trait to have if you can follow up a poor play with several good ones. Like James Maloney in league. But the problem for Richie is he often makes a mistake and then we don’t see him do any at all for very long stretches. That’s not what you need leading your team around the field. Not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. He was outstanding a couple games back. But he’s still very much a work in progress.
I think Goodhue has been off all of the test series. He’s not making ground on carries and he’s been caught out on defense a few times. Looks underdone or carrying an injury. He’s much better player than what we have seen this year. His mate in the mid field has been outstanding though. ALB is going from strength to strength every game. Strong defender and makes ground on every carry. Best back this year.
Clarke got a reality check today. Will go back to calling him Eroni’s son instead of calling Clarke senior Caleb’s dad. I think Reece would have been a better option against this defense and with how flat we were on offence. Jordie Barrett needs to be given time in the 15 jersey. He was shit yesterday and was rightfully subbed but he’s playing out of position. I’d like to see McKenzie out on the wing. Just to see if we are potentially missing a trick. Yes I understand that would be playing another specialist fullback out of position...
The scrum got eaten yesterday. This is something we have been extremely strong in for a number of years now. So why have we suddenly gone backwards? I’m a fucken winger so can a prop explain it to me please? Redbeard was always good for that. Our lineout is consistently the best or in and around the best, year in year out. But not last night.
Aside from Whitelock I was disappointed with the entire forward back. They were bitch slapped for 80min. Hosking Sotutu made an impact against a tiring Puma pack but I’m struggling to think of a period we’re our pack looked cohesive or imposing.
I’m going to upset some of you Cane-Inites but he’s not a captains arsehole. ALB was taken high off the ball and eventually sent for an HIA. Nothing from Cane to the ref. Earlier in the game Jordie was hit with a shoulder to the head in a loose, almost armless tackle and he stayed down for a long period. Cane should have been screaming at the ref to look for foul play. But again nothing. Smith was hit high in yet another dubious tackle and again nothing from Cane. There was a maul formed on the Pumas line. The ref called out a pumas player to hold his position. Smith went to clear the ball and that player, the ref called out, then purposely knocked the ball out of smiths hands. That’s 10 in the bin everyday of the week. We were hot on attack and Cane did not blow up. That’s all you need to know he’s not the guy. Cant fault his effort to put his body on the line. But he’s not the guy. “Who do you give it to then, raz?” I hear you say. Fuck knows. Whitelock? Certainly plays like a “follow me”guy but is too quiet like Cane. A returning Retallick maybe. No one in the backs. Once upon a time Coles would have been good but he’s a 40-50min player now with an idiot streak that he’s never grown out of.
The ref was as shit as a ref can be. That charge down call was some shit he imagined. One of the worst calls I have ever seen. It shows a lack of feeling for the game and a lack of common sense. No excuses we lost because we were shit. But Angus put on one of the worst performances I’ve seen from a referee in years.
Lots to work on for the players. Very sure the coaches don’t have the ability to turn it around with a bit of motivational speaking. Because what ever was said at half time yesterday did Jack shit to spark them.
Probably a good thing Boks aren’t here this year
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@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
I'm on the fence on this eh. I started off blaming the players for being stupid and still do to an extent but like I said in my first post, what the fuck is going on outside the games that is causing very accomplished players to become shells of their former selves?
A year or two ago Taylor was easily our best hooker and many were touting for Perenara over Smith. Now they look like NPC is their level. That can't all be on the players? It's so prevalent.
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@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
I'm on the fence on this eh. I started off blaming the players for being stupid and still do to an extent but like I said in my first post, what the fuck is going on outside the games that is causing very accomplished players to become shells of their former selves?
Too much time hanging out on Manly beach?
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Does anyone remet when the real hard fast line speed on defence became a thing? Cos we haven't innovated since then, or at least haven't innovated successfully. Our 3+ year old game plan needs a total remake. The continuity coaching set up is never going to bring that. FFS NZR we need to move on. End off this season at the latest, give the crusaders time to find a new coach, and the ABs time to plan
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@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
I'm on the fence on this eh. I started off blaming the players for being stupid and still do to an extent but like I said in my first post, what the fuck is going on outside the games that is causing very accomplished players to become shells of their former selves?
Too much time hanging out on Manly beach?
You reckon their togs are too small? I thought I saw this posted on the grumpy thread.
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@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
I'm on the fence on this eh. I started off blaming the players for being stupid and still do to an extent but like I said in my first post, what the fuck is going on outside the games that is causing very accomplished players to become shells of their former selves?
A year or two ago Taylor was easily our best hooker and many were touting for Perenara over Smith. Now they look like NPC is their level. That can't all be on the players? It's so prevalent.
Yes I am struggling with this, over the last two games seem to be so many of our experienced guys who are underperforming. That’s 2 games in a row where I would struggle to find 3 MOTM candidates.
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@Bones do they still use Enoka?
He used to get alot of credit for our players mental strength, now we seem to be making alot of poor decisions.
These players don't lose thier skill and ability, so what has happened, is the red and blue head stuff Henry used to talk about?
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@pakman said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Thoughts from a rewatch of first 50. In some ways not a bad as I thought, in others much worse. Based on first 50 don't think it is fair to blame Foster for everything.
Anyhow:
-
ABs actually did quite a lot well, without doing anything extraordinary.
-
Trouble is it seems there was a 5 minute outbreak of brain fade amongst ABs which, by giving away stupid penalties, relieved pressure on Pumas and in some cases also led to points.
Cole slap penalty reversal 24
Jordie no arms 25
Frizell illegal cleanout 28
Savea comes round ruck thinking ball out 29WTF!!!!
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The last of these nearly conceded a try, and then when Puma TH dropped left shoulder and bored in Moody penalised for dropping bind, which, given he was by then pushing on TH hip, was ludicrous. 3 points.
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Even then there was some light (albeit what seemed minutes lost for kick/kick off/another scrum (this time where Puma TH penalised for same thing)) and then Mo'unga overdoes kick to touch. Another scrum and half time at 16-3. It could/should have been 13-3/16-8.
Then in first 10 of second:
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AB backline runs move for what looks like first time ever and Jordie knocks on.
-
Things led to another scrum in front of Puma sticks and Puma LH drags down on Lomax's jersey and he eventually goes to ground. Gardner penalises ABs, when it should have been other way around.
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To make matters worse, from lineout Puma maul draws penalty, then another stupid one from Goodhue, and hey presto it's 19-3 instead of 16-6. Huge difference at that stage.
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Last act of 50, ABs lose lineout on own throw.
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AB players need to take ownership for stupid acts of self sabotage, which made Pumas look considerably better than they probably were. That said, they could only play what was in front of them, which was a bit of a rabble.
I agree with a lot of the general theme of posters about the development (or not) of AB game, but if players don't use their heads not a lot the coaching team can do.
More's the pity, because I think if ABs had focussed on maintaining the pressure the signs are the points would have come.
The best analysis for me yet.
There was an interesting point in the post game analysis that showed the Pumas consistently with only 1 tackler and 14 men standing. The ABs have to figure out ( like the World Cup loss) how to win against teams that can match them physically and are good defensively.
Everyone thinks we are going to find super man players that are going to run through holes and into space that doesn’t exist e.g. as good as Sotutu and Clarke are they were just tackled yesterday like everyone else.
So for me it’s do the basics well, win the contact and don’t make errors. We just have too many players that did that yesterday and that collectively added up to a loss. As Pakman showed this was just good test rugby. Don’t make mistakes, play territory, create scoreboard pressure.
We all talk about Plan B. But we don’t have the mindset in our players to do Plan A in a test match. I actually think coaches get it more than the players but they hopefully will have seen the size of the issue yesterday. You actually need a number 8 carrying and hitting rucks and creating momentum at the get go not 60 mins in. And you want players with low error rates so you build pressure. We just are not currently capable of grinding out a win anymore. If we get back to that we will be ok.
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I see this game as an example of poor coaching, poor tactics, poor leadership, and poor team culture. The game plan was stupid, at no time was anyone adapting to the Argie rush defence. Bashing the ball up over and over is a hiding to nothing when the other team is bigger and we have a bunch of sixes and lazy front row setting up precisely nothing for the backs. For quite a few games now I've been irritated how often the backs then just shuffle the ball along the line. No gaps created, no chips over defence, no back up at the shoulder of a line break, when there always used to be an AB right there. Poor coaching.
Not sure what the hell is going on with the senior leadership team. Cane has proven to be an average captain at best, if you have a bunch of newbies and are getting penalised all the time, you can't just say follow me and disappear. These troops need marshaling. They need to be told to pull their heads in when they get pissy. Far too many are getting rattled as hell and not even doing basics right. Quite often it seems like the instinct is gone, that reliance on mates, that good balance of steady forward unleashing explosive back. Get Coles the fuck off the wing and tell him to get to the bottom of the pile where he belongs. Jordie is not a winger, stop putting him there. The Richie and BB thing is all well and good, but when they are off, they are awful. The backline was a shambles, and no half back is putting his hand up right now.
I'm actually sick of the social media stuff, the fawning hype, the ads, the extended vacations to Japan. That's all some of the players seem to care about. The best product is a team showing you they are the best, not telling you. You can't live on legacy forever, you have to keep adding to the aura to refresh it. Last night we were completely out thought, out played, out coached and out passioned. The Argies clearly have a solid team culture, bound by adversity and playing for each other. We have a bunch of guys who frequently look like they just met 5 mins before. And that sucks. -
@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Bones do they still use Enoka?
He used to get alot of credit for our players mental strength, now we seem to be making alot of poor decisions.
These players don't lose thier skill and ability, so what has happened, is the red and blue head stuff Henry used to talk about?
Yeah I’m not sure Enoka is the guy because he’s been involved since the late90s / early 2000s and it was only when McCaw consulted Ceri Evans that we got the blue / red thing and we actually won a world cup
