Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November
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@Siam said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@NTA ok, I can understand that. So you need to be committing numerous offences to warrant a card.
Let's see how that plays out...
Not necessarily.
The first thing to remember is that rugby has Laws. Not Rules. Not Strictures. Not Gospel.
Laws have interpretation. That means in different situations you're going to have different outcomes, because ultimately rugby is a fluid game and you're going to get differences in refereeing depending on the flow of the game.
If Argie #5 did exactly the same thing BUT the ABs were 2 metres out from the goal line on a rampage with their maul, he probably gets yellow carded. I believe I commented at the time in this thread I thought it was "yellow, surely" but AFG didn't see it that way.
Remember that the guy with the whistle is generally the closest to the action. He's out there breathing every minute of the contest so he's making these interpretations run on the fly.
I would like some consistency around using the TMO but that has its own pitfalls and you can*'t* please all the fans all the time.
I love complaining about referees not penalising the ABs enough, but I like to think I've backed off on that since refereeing a game. In fact I think all rugby fans should do a shortened version of their local Union's refereeing course. Might help calm everyone down.
OK, not everyone, but some...
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@PecoTrain said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@akan004 said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that only Cane and Whitelock would currently be selected in a combined AB/Bok pack. Whitelock may not even make it tbh.
That unfortunately is the reality of where our forwards are atm. We simply aren't world class up front anymore.Who would you take Cane over in the Bok pack?
Kolisi.
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@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus not like these issues are new to 2020 though are they
Nope Chicago had a very similar feel to it.
Chicago was the first game of a tour of what was nearly a home game with the amount of support the Irish had, so rustiness, a yellow card and a slight ambush played there parts. While it hurt, the Irish team was very strong at the time and Schmidt was a very good coach and the Irish had a lot of motivation.
In game 5, after last weeks loss, with no cards, with Cheika as part of the coaching staff and against a team that was ranked outside the top 5 (10th at the moment but they are better than that) in the world with arguably our first choice players? That's a much bigger issue.
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It seems that our magic number is still 26. We get there we normally win (and would have yesterday). Simplistic, but does hold some water.
Not many teams beat our defence to get past that score (Aus / Perth, Boks a couple of times last few years, but only just and we won one of them).
Our lack of imagination to break down defences is killing us. We can't get to that number. They all know how to stifle us and it works.
We managed >26 twice this year and won. Stats and damn lies I know, but our attack (and limiting it to counter attack and broken play) won't cut it anymore, other teams have it too sorted, we just can't score. More of a kicking game early to create doubt maybe, but at least try and kick into space. Execution is poor at the moment.
Yes, scoring more points than the opposition wins you games, but the point is our "attack" isn't there. We have the players but no idea how to use them to maximise the skills.
We can't go down the "kick for territory and kick penalties" route to win either because we give away too many ourselves (mostly through stupidity (Coles, S Barret, et al).
We really do need a Wayne Smith or maybe Tony Brown, as others have mentioned, as well as a head coach that inspires confidence not incompetence.
That's my venting over (and I don't feel any better for it either).
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@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Siam to a lesser extent I think so, but largely on the ref, I mean the douche moment by Coles, most refs would tell him to pull his head in, but AG said that was a 'slap' and reversed the pen...
Man in the middle calls them as he sees them (even if he sees them wrong
)Don't forget that AG had already told Matera that his team should not respond to AB provocation and that he would take care of it - I'm not sure there is much to complain about with that decision even if it was a little soft. The ref said he would do smething and he did.
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@PecoTrain said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Chicago was the first game of a tour of what was nearly a home game with the amount of support the Irish had, so rustiness, a yellow card and a slight ambush played there parts.
Some stupidity in there as well. A seriously narrow field (we knew that), close stands, mean no quick throw ins and every kick goes to a lineout.
Who were our locks? We were limited for choice but that was a screw up.
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@PecoTrain I wasnt complaining about it...although I think Gardner chose to ignore plenty of Argies with arms around our necks at rucks/mauls, particularly in that first quarter, but when they got the ascendancy physically they just went to normal niggle.
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@NTA said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@raznomore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
The scrum got eaten yesterday. This is something we have been extremely strong in for a number of years now. So why have we suddenly gone backwards? Iām a fucken winger so can a prop explain it to me please. Redbeard was always good for that.
I think its down to your second row inconsistency. When you've got BBBR or Thorn pushing it is a markedly different prospect to Whitelock (who is no slouch) and almost anyone else available ATM. Throw in Whitelock having a couple of up and down performances, and swapping combinations through selection.
Our lineout is consistently the best or in and around the best, year in year out. But not last night.
It wasn't great last week either. Camped on the Wallaby line at the end of the first half and then got picked off. Again: consistency.
Donāt know what you think, but seems to me that some locks are better on TH ā BBBR, Romano, Thorn, Kruis, etc. and others LH ā Whitelock, Barrett and Itoje. So ABs have Whitelock at TH, which isnāt his best side and Patty T, which despite being very powerful never seems to transfer it to scrum time. Add in a couple of novice props and one hooker who isnāt known for his scrummaging and youāve got a fairly so so set up.
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@Bones said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@chimoaus said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Argentina on the other hand have had months of build up for this one game, to beat a team they have never beaten and a clear game plan to train for.
Wait, Argies don't have family? If I was an AB I'd be training to beat a team we'd never lost to.
The interesting thing with all this COVID hubs/bubbles or whatever you want to call it for teams away from home ,
In the AFL and nrl , teams that won the comp had been away from home for months and even the warriors seemed to form a brotherhood bond that won them respect , it almost seems some sides were able to tap into something and use it to their advantage when they hit the field even if there was some homesick stuff going on off the field .
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@taniwharugby said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@Siam to a lesser extent I think so, but largely on the ref, I mean the douche moment by Coles, most refs would tell him to pull his head in, but AG said that was a 'slap' and reversed the pen...
Man in the middle calls them as he sees them (even if he sees them wrong
)I suspect Coles was probably doing a lot of other niggly stuff prior to that and AG had probably thought enough is enough.
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@raznomore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Iām going to upset some of you Cane-Inites but heās not a captains arsehole. ALB was taken high off the ball and eventually sent for an HIA. Nothing from Cane to the ref. Earlier in the game Jordie was hit with a shoulder to the head in a loose, almost armless tackle and he stayed down for a long period. Cane should have been screaming at the ref to look for foul play. But again nothing. Smith was hit high in yet another dubious tackle and again nothing from Cane. There was a maul formed on the Pumas line. The ref called out a pumas player to hold his position. Smith went to clear the ball and that player, the ref called out, then purposely knocked the ball out of smiths hands. Thatās 10 in the bin everyday of the week. We were hot on attack and Cane did not blow up. Thatās all you need to know heās not the guy. Cant fault his effort to put his body on the line. But heās not the guy. āWho do you give it to then, raz?ā I hear you say. Fuck knows. Whitelock? Certainly plays like a āfollow meāguy but is too quiet like Cane. A returning Retallick maybe. No one in the backs. Once upon a time Coles would have been good but heās a 40-50min player now with an idiot streak that heās never grown out of.
Aaron Smith? Would be in the mould of a George Gregan type, only downside is he is in the latter part of his career
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@JC said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Well with the benefit of some space hereās my take.
The ABs have been riding their luck for a while now against a rush defence, with the theory being (as I understand it) that as defences tire you get misalignment because it becomes increasingly difficult for the big forwards to move up at pace while staying aligned with the backs. Then take advantage of the small misalignments to breach the d line.
In practice that worked too, which may be why we saw points coming in the 3rd quarter, the ABs made the oppo make tackles and tired out their forwards earlier in the game, then when the subs come on for the oppo itās too late because theyāre now playing catch-up and they have a different problem.
But all that is based on the AB doing their jobs really well. Good body position taking the tackle, good handling and great cleanouts to force the defence to move. Instead though weāve now got slow and unreliable breakdowns so by the time the halfback has cleared the ball the rush has had plenty of time to align. As oppositions get fitter it becomes even harder manipulate the line.
Iām interested to know what Fosterās plan is now. The players obviously know their jobs but they arenāt executing. Sam Whitelock on his own isnāt going to secure quick ball for 80 minutes. And press conferences arenāt going to fix that, coaching is. But I havenāt seen any evidence of coaching happening.
If all you have to do to be AB coach now is selection then Iāll have a go. After all it seems you donāt have to actually win. I reckon I can do a selection conference then a post match where I can say the players didnāt execute. After all theyāve already fucked the legacy so I donāt have to worry about that.
probably more pick and goes up the guts to get the defensive line continually moving backwards and re-learning how to hand off the ball in the tackle rather than aimlessly throwing it back for defensive players to pounce on
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@Nevorian not sure more pick and goes works against a defensive line that is working as one...you need to be more creative, go 2 wide, then pick and go, go the other way 2 wide, then 1 off, instead we just kept hammering away, rinse repeat
We are not pressuring the defence to make decisions (do I slide, go forward, drop back, shit my mate has drifted, where is the ball going) we are just asking them to make tackles without much movement or doubt as to who they need to tackle
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@raznomore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Moāunga was rubbish yesterday.
Agree. Moāunga seems to need a dominate forward pack otherwise he rubbish
And BB was rubbish last week. The result. 2 lossesMy view is one should start and the other should be in the reserves. So say if Moāunga starts and is playing like crap then take him off. To replace with a 1st 5 not someones whose been pissed around in two positions. But mainly at FB
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@Winger said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
@raznomore said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Moāunga was rubbish yesterday.
Agree. Moāunga seems to need a dominate forward pack otherwise he rubbish
And BB was rubbish last week. The result. 2 lossesMy view is one should start and the other should be in the reserves. So say if Moāunga starts and is playing like crap then take him off. To replace with a 1st 5 not someones whose been pissed around in two positions. But mainly at FB
Beauden's play at first 5 isn't going to improve more by being on the bench than it is by playing fullback with plenty of opportunity in the first receiver role.
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@reprobate said in Argentina One: Parramatta, 14 November:
Beauden's play at first 5 isn't going to improve
Based on last week its not improving playing at FB. And the team needs another option at 1st
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No first-five is going to play well unless he has some kind of forward pack in front of him.
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@raznomore BB's game management was always fickle.
Coles did have a time he controlled himself and he is still a form hooker but needs to be left out to cool down. Senior players need to fight for their place.I agree with the captaincy issue you raise. Cantabs can say better than I can, but I don't think SW would be a too quiet captain. There is one other option and that is A Smith. He would not be quiet but would he be a good captain?
