Secret Super rugby review: Axe a team from Australia and South Africa
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="609295" data-time="1472213308">
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<p>Nah, he'd be expected to actually have a running game and to do something other than nick pill. I reckon there are plenty of players that could get plenty more steals if that's all they were assigned to do.<br><br>
Pococks finest moments have been pretty much those games when his team is getting pumped and he stems the tide with his steals. I would hope we would never need a player like that for the abs.</p>
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<p>nah i reckon we'd be glad to have him. there is no other player who is as strong over the ball as him. partially that's because he is a midget, which negatively impacts other parts of his game, but nobody else can do what he does, as well as he does. if our guys could, then surely they would turn it on when we were under the pump?</p>
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<p>he's also a very reliable defender in general - does not miss many tackles, and as mentioned by hydro, effective in the maul. it all depends on the skills you decide to prioritise in a position. owen franks is a shit ball runner, but so what.</p>
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<p>the problem the aussies have is balance. if they had a read, kaino, coles etc to cover the ball-running, and a retallick, whitelock, read combo for the lineout, and beauden barrett using the ball he won, he'd be an opposition's nightmare. you seem to want him to do everything by himself before you'll rate him. </p>
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<p>the best game i've seen pocock play was knocking the saffas out in 2011. he won that game pretty much by himself.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hurricane" data-cid="609275" data-time="1472208777">
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<p>Well whatever. At least I don't rate players just because they wear a black jersey. Cane is destined to be a journeyman player at best. Pocock in his prime<br>
was being discussed as being on par with an ageing McCaw. Both Hoopah and Pocock are distinctly better players than Cane is. Cane just happens to be<br>
on the winning team so somehow that makes him better.<br><br>
Anyway I am majorly outnumbered and have an unpopular opinion and you guys aren't even debating me you are just firing pot shots so yeah...I don't<br>
think on retrospect it is a wise thing to come on to a web site for NZ fans and tell them a player in the AB team isn't number one in the world in his position.</p>
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<p>If you don't like being called out for talking shit, maybe the Stuff comments section is more your style?</p>
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<p>And no, linking a G&G article that cherry picks a few stats (as if they tell the full story anyway) is not proof Cane is a journeyman or whatever other crap you want to spout.</p>
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<p>Personally, I actually like Pocock (not a fan of Hoopah though) but I think if he were a NZ player, he'd probably be in the same weird position Todd's been in for the last few years. He's a very good player but doesn't have the game we expect from our opensides these days. Out and out fetchers just aren't as valued here as they are in Aus, especially when that comes at the cost of ball running skills. And yeah, you can point to Franks but he's a fucking prop, when he's not in scrums, his job is to hit rucks and he does it well.</p> -
Don't think anyone is disputing that pocock is a good player but to say he is the best 7 going round or that Aust have the most depth at 7 is debatable. It all depends on what areas you place the most importance on. If it is turnovers you probably say pocock, if it is ball running you probably say Savea, if you value a tackling machine with huge motor you probably say Cane. <br><br>
If you look at Mccaw who is the greatest player to ever wear a 7 jersey, or rugby jersey for that matter, one of his biggest assets was his motor and the fact he would make 5 dominant tackles in a row. To me the most similar to him is Cane. That quality is more important to an AB 7 than stealing the ball at the ruck. So i don't agree that pocock would be the AB 7 if he were a kiwi. <br><br>
Pocock is good at what he does. But that one trick (or two if you want to count the maul) is easy to neutralise by targetting him in the cleanout, the ABs have done it in pretty much every game he has played against them. Sure he has pinched a few balls but it hasn't been game changing and they have suffered in other areas. <br>
Also that 2011 Qtr vs the Boks he was assisted by a ref who refused to blow a penalty against him even though he was rarely supporting his own bodyweight. Funnily enough the 7 from the other side Brussow was also a turnover specialist. IMO he caused more problems for the ABs at the breakdown than Pocock ever has. <br><br>
On the depth issue i would say its pretty even. Pocock+hoopah is pretty even with Cane + Savea then the next tier Gill, Reid, McMahon, Hodgson etc is pretty even with Todd, Gibson, Christie, Taufua, Pryor etc. A lot of those guys would be selected for most test sides in the world. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="609298" data-time="1472216163"><p>
nah i reckon we'd be glad to have him. there is no other player who is as strong over the ball as him. partially that's because he is a midget, which negatively impacts other parts of his game, but nobody else can do what he does, as well as he does. if our guys could, then surely they would turn it on when we were under the pump?<br><br>
he's also a very reliable defender in general - does not miss many tackles, and as mentioned by hydro, effective in the maul. it all depends on the skills you decide to prioritise in a position. owen franks is a shit ball runner, but so what.<br><br>
the problem the aussies have is balance. if they had a read, kaino, coles etc to cover the ball-running, and a retallick, whitelock, read combo for the lineout, and beauden barrett using the ball he won, he'd be an opposition's nightmare. you seem to want him to do everything by himself before you'll rate him. <br><br>
the best game i've seen pocock play was knocking the saffas out in 2011. he won that game pretty much by himself.</p></blockquote>
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How on earth can you compare a prop with a loose forward? What a bizarre comment.<br><br>
It's not about doing everything, it's about having better all-round rugby skills. For instance, I could never rate a flyhalf who could kick goals from everywhere, but was a poor tackler and runner. The rest of the team shouldn't have to compensate for his deficiencies.<br><br>
As to steals, it is not part of NZ rugby to have one guy assigned to do only that. I've mentioned before talking to a top rugby analyst in Aus who felt that this overemphasis on stealing pill was not helping Aus rugby. I just can't see a guy like Pocock with absolutely no running game and no ability to act as a link as being a first choice 7 in NZ rugby. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="609283" data-time="1472210800"><p>That's so shit. All kiwi defenders of an overseas player always fall back on the "nz supporters never see others as being any good"line.<br><br>Pocock is huge over the ball, but it's his only trick. He's slow, a passive tackler, and has little ball skill.<br><br>Hoopah is quick, and a breakdown menace. But isn't physical, and tends to go missing out wide for large periods of the game. I'm still waiting to see what his real strength is.<br><br>Both are penalty magnets.<br><br>What puts them ahead of Cane again?</p></blockquote>His real strength, you mentioned it, he is an opportunist, but can't normally wrestle it back when the chips are down hence flies around the field but is often inneffective and in danger of being a flat track bully.
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This is kind of academic, if Pocock played with Read and Kaino it might be easy to do a comparison.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hurricane" data-cid="609270" data-time="1472208296">
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<p>Cane won't even be the starting AB number 7 two years from now. His decision making as evidenced in silly penalties he takes in super rugby alone indicate<br>
he is not a disciplined player.</p>
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<p>Same arguments were made about Nonu - who seemed to reduce his silly penalties when playing in black. He might not be starting 7 in two years - but you can say that for any of the 1-15 currently wearing black (well maybe not Whitelock and Retalick).</p>
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<p>I noticed on the green and gold site they left off number of rucks hit by the two Kiwi Flankers - wonder why?</p> -
<br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Gary" data-cid="609315" data-time="1472230647"><p>
I noticed on the green and gold site they left off number of rucks hit by the two Kiwi Flankers - wonder why?</p></blockquote>
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Prppably dont have the data for it. There is a guy from the forum who does the ruck stats himself for aussie teams+wallabies. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Stargazer" data-cid="609145" data-time="1472191321"><p>
Do we really need a separate topic for this? Again? It's cluttering the forum.</p></blockquote>
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I think so.<br><br>
I've avoided the "Fix Super Rugby" topic recently so am glad this is posted like this. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hurricane" data-cid="609266" data-time="1472207165"><p>
Who does New Zealand have - Cane? I would have Hoopah and Pocock ahead of him anyday.</p></blockquote>
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You're down on Sammy.<br><br>
So last Saturday's match where he outplayed the combined might of Poopah was an aberration? -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="609268" data-time="1472207784"><p>
You're out of your fucking mind.</p></blockquote>
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Some people put it so much more eloquently... -
Classic thread diversion
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="609300" data-time="1472218245">
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<p>I apologise for swearing at you - I realise that was a bit OTT, Your comment just caught me off guard especially after last saturday. No, I don't think I rate every New Zealand player as being the best in the world in his position by default just because he wears a black jersey, well maybe I do now that I stop to think about it, but they are the best team in the world for a reason.</p>
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<p>Here is my more reasonable response </p>
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<p>Personally, I actually like Pocock (not a fan of Hoopah though) but I think if he were a NZ player, he'd probably be in the same weird position Todd's been in for the last few years. He's a very good player but doesn't have the game we expect from our opensides these days. Out and out fetchers just aren't as valued here as they are in Aus, especially when that comes at the cost of ball running skills. And yeah, you can point to Franks but he's a fucking prop, when he's not in scrums, his job is to hit rucks and he does it well.</p>
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<p>Fixed your post for you...</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nostrildamus" data-cid="609309" data-time="1472220796">
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<p>This is kind of academic, if Pocock played with Read and Kaino it might be easy to do a comparison.</p>
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<p>Bingo - comparing individuals in a team sport is extremely difficult. If we had a big bruiser to play #8 in the Kefu style, along with Fardy and Pocock that would be a hell of a back row.</p>
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<p>Not that it would make up for a shit tight five that doesn't turn up.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="609362" data-time="1472251534">
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<p>That's your best response? How old are you? 10?</p>
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<p>Most likely.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote"><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Behind Cane we have Savea who is very good I guess, but then who </span><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Matt Todd...<strong>Major LOL</strong>. I distinctly remember a super match towards the end where a wellington player ran straight over the top of him and Todd looked like <strong>chump</strong>.</span></blockquote>
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<p><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Dismissing a bloody good player because he missed A tackle. </span></p>
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<p><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">Not really worth addressing.</span></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hurricane" data-cid="609266" data-time="1472207165">
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<p><strong>I think you are completely underselling Reid.</strong> He is a quality number 7. McMahon is also "isn't bad". That gives Australia 4 International quality number 7s.<br>
Hoopah, Pocock, Reid, McMahon not to mention Gill isn't bad either and by memory it was gill who had the most turnovers out of Australia's number 7s<br>
last year.<br><br>
Who does New Zealand have - Cane? I would have Hoopah and Pocock ahead of him anyday. Behind Cane we have Savea who is very good I guess, but then who<br>
Matt Todd...Major LOL. I distinctly remember a super match towards the end where a wellington player ran straight over the top of him and Todd looked like chump.</p>
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<p>How on earth was I underselling Reid? I didn't mention anything about his ability.</p>
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<p>If Pocock was a Zim-Kiwi instead of an Zim-Aus I don't think he'd be the regular starter for Hansen coached teams for reasons that many have mentioned in this thread above (and in my response to Hydro below).</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="609281" data-time="1472210237">
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<p>I hardly think it is that ridiculous to think that Pocock/Hoopah are better than Cane. There are a lot of people who seem to think that every single All Black is better than every single Wallaby. I just don't think that is the case. If that is the case then there would almost be no way I could see us losing on Saturday. A lot of people on here don't like Pocock's "style" because he is always looking for the turnover and is a weak tackler. Okay. How much better would those turnovers look if he was turning the ball over and giving it to Barrett? <strong>Would Cane look anywhere near as good as a Wallaby?</strong></p>
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<p>He probably would have last weekend because he likely would have tackled himself to a standstill - something the Wallabies seemed to actively avoid.</p>
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<p>And on Pocock's style, as has been mentioned many times (Rancid in this thread) the ABs don't play a style that has one player constantly turnover ball and they haven't for ages even thought they had one of the best in the business at it. Would the ABs change their style for one player? I don't think so.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="609362" data-time="1472251534">
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<p>That's your best response? How old are you? 10?</p>
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<p>Better than the foul langauage you come up with. Would you have preferred if I had sworn back at you. Is that the level of discourse you understand and respect?</p>
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<p>Anyway - my response was designed to get a laugh out of you, and eventually get us to shake hands and move on. </p>
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<p>I do think you were OTT with your initial response, but perhaps I should call this quits and move on as a reconciliation does not appear likely.</p>
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<p>Good luck to you.</p>
