Secret Super rugby review: Axe a team from Australia and South Africa
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="609276" data-time="1472209197"><p>That old chestnut is not going to cut it. You've made the call, back it up. So far it's an opinion on the future, and fuck all else.<br><br>In what ways are pooper both better than cane? How are their backups all better than savea and todd?</p></blockquote><br>You won't like the source as it is green and gold - but the stats analysis is clear - Cane lagged behind the others in most dimensions from a stats<br>point of view (turnovers, penalties conceeded etc) in the Super Rugby Comp this year<br><br><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/by-the-numbers-wallaby-openside/'>http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/by-the-numbers-wallaby-openside/</a>
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<p>I hardly think it is that ridiculous to think that Pocock/Hooper are better than Cane. There are a lot of people who seem to think that every single All Black is better than every single Wallaby. I just don't think that is the case. If that is the case then there would almost be no way I could see us losing on Saturday. A lot of people on here don't like Pocock's "style" because he is always looking for the turnover and is a weak tackler. Okay. How much better would those turnovers look if he was turning the ball over and giving it to Barrett? Would Cane look anywhere near as good as a Wallaby?</p>
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That's so shit. All kiwi defenders of an overseas player always fall back on the "nz supporters never see others as being any good"line.<br><br>
Pocock is huge over the ball, but it's his only trick. He's slow, a passive tackler, and has little ball skill. <br><br>
Hooper is quick, and a breakdown menace. But isn't physical, and tends to go missing out wide for large periods of the game. I'm still waiting to see what his real strength is.<br><br>
Both are penalty magnets. <br><br>
What puts them ahead of Cane again? -
<p>those stats say cane gives away more penalties than hooper or pocock.</p>
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<p>cane is a great tackler, and has a great motor. he's quite a different player to either of those guys.</p>
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<p>i've said it before and i'll say it again - if pocock was playing in our pack, he would be regarded as incredible, because our other players would make up for his deficiencies. he would get more turnovers, and we would simply slaughter teams on the counter-attack with that turnover ball - and he'd get the credit for that.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="609283" data-time="1472210800">
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<p>That's so shit. All kiwi defenders of an overseas player always fall back on the "nz supporters never see others as being any good"line.<br><br>
Pocock is huge over the ball, but it's his only trick. He's slow, a passive tackler, and has little ball skill.<br><br>
Hoopah is quick, and a breakdown menace. But isn't physical, and tends to go missing out wide for large periods of the game. I'm still waiting to see what his real strength is.<br><br>
Both are penalty magnets.<br><br>
What puts them ahead of Cane again?</p>
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<p>Well, Hurricane posted evidence that Cane gives away more penalties than both of them. If you want to provide stats to the contrary, go ahead.</p>
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<p>I would also add that Pocock is very intelligent and good in the rolling maul.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="609285" data-time="1472211318"><p>
those stats say cane gives away more penalties than Hoopah or pocock.<br><br>
cane is a great tackler, and has a great motor. he's quite a different player to either of those guys.<br><br>
i've said it before and i'll say it again - if pocock was playing in our pack, he would be regarded as incredible, because our other players would make up for his deficiencies. he would get more turnovers, and we would simply slaughter teams on the counter-attack with that turnover ball - and he'd get the credit for that.</p></blockquote>
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Nah, he'd be expected to actually have a running game and to do something other than nick pill. I reckon there are plenty of players that could get plenty more steals if that's all they were assigned to do. <br><br>
Pococks finest moments have been pretty much those games when his team is getting pumped and he stems the tide with his steals. I would hope we would never need a player like that for the abs. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="609295" data-time="1472213308">
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<p>Nah, he'd be expected to actually have a running game and to do something other than nick pill. I reckon there are plenty of players that could get plenty more steals if that's all they were assigned to do.<br><br>
Pococks finest moments have been pretty much those games when his team is getting pumped and he stems the tide with his steals. I would hope we would never need a player like that for the abs.</p>
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<p>nah i reckon we'd be glad to have him. there is no other player who is as strong over the ball as him. partially that's because he is a midget, which negatively impacts other parts of his game, but nobody else can do what he does, as well as he does. if our guys could, then surely they would turn it on when we were under the pump?</p>
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<p>he's also a very reliable defender in general - does not miss many tackles, and as mentioned by hydro, effective in the maul. it all depends on the skills you decide to prioritise in a position. owen franks is a shit ball runner, but so what.</p>
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<p>the problem the aussies have is balance. if they had a read, kaino, coles etc to cover the ball-running, and a retallick, whitelock, read combo for the lineout, and beauden barrett using the ball he won, he'd be an opposition's nightmare. you seem to want him to do everything by himself before you'll rate him. </p>
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<p>the best game i've seen pocock play was knocking the saffas out in 2011. he won that game pretty much by himself.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hurricane" data-cid="609275" data-time="1472208777">
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<p>Well whatever. At least I don't rate players just because they wear a black jersey. Cane is destined to be a journeyman player at best. Pocock in his prime<br>
was being discussed as being on par with an ageing McCaw. Both Hoopah and Pocock are distinctly better players than Cane is. Cane just happens to be<br>
on the winning team so somehow that makes him better.<br><br>
Anyway I am majorly outnumbered and have an unpopular opinion and you guys aren't even debating me you are just firing pot shots so yeah...I don't<br>
think on retrospect it is a wise thing to come on to a web site for NZ fans and tell them a player in the AB team isn't number one in the world in his position.</p>
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<p>If you don't like being called out for talking shit, maybe the Stuff comments section is more your style?</p>
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<p>And no, linking a G&G article that cherry picks a few stats (as if they tell the full story anyway) is not proof Cane is a journeyman or whatever other crap you want to spout.</p>
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<p>Personally, I actually like Pocock (not a fan of Hoopah though) but I think if he were a NZ player, he'd probably be in the same weird position Todd's been in for the last few years. He's a very good player but doesn't have the game we expect from our opensides these days. Out and out fetchers just aren't as valued here as they are in Aus, especially when that comes at the cost of ball running skills. And yeah, you can point to Franks but he's a fucking prop, when he's not in scrums, his job is to hit rucks and he does it well.</p> -
Don't think anyone is disputing that pocock is a good player but to say he is the best 7 going round or that Aust have the most depth at 7 is debatable. It all depends on what areas you place the most importance on. If it is turnovers you probably say pocock, if it is ball running you probably say Savea, if you value a tackling machine with huge motor you probably say Cane. <br><br>
If you look at Mccaw who is the greatest player to ever wear a 7 jersey, or rugby jersey for that matter, one of his biggest assets was his motor and the fact he would make 5 dominant tackles in a row. To me the most similar to him is Cane. That quality is more important to an AB 7 than stealing the ball at the ruck. So i don't agree that pocock would be the AB 7 if he were a kiwi. <br><br>
Pocock is good at what he does. But that one trick (or two if you want to count the maul) is easy to neutralise by targetting him in the cleanout, the ABs have done it in pretty much every game he has played against them. Sure he has pinched a few balls but it hasn't been game changing and they have suffered in other areas. <br>
Also that 2011 Qtr vs the Boks he was assisted by a ref who refused to blow a penalty against him even though he was rarely supporting his own bodyweight. Funnily enough the 7 from the other side Brussow was also a turnover specialist. IMO he caused more problems for the ABs at the breakdown than Pocock ever has. <br><br>
On the depth issue i would say its pretty even. Pocock+hoopah is pretty even with Cane + Savea then the next tier Gill, Reid, McMahon, Hodgson etc is pretty even with Todd, Gibson, Christie, Taufua, Pryor etc. A lot of those guys would be selected for most test sides in the world. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="609298" data-time="1472216163"><p>
nah i reckon we'd be glad to have him. there is no other player who is as strong over the ball as him. partially that's because he is a midget, which negatively impacts other parts of his game, but nobody else can do what he does, as well as he does. if our guys could, then surely they would turn it on when we were under the pump?<br><br>
he's also a very reliable defender in general - does not miss many tackles, and as mentioned by hydro, effective in the maul. it all depends on the skills you decide to prioritise in a position. owen franks is a shit ball runner, but so what.<br><br>
the problem the aussies have is balance. if they had a read, kaino, coles etc to cover the ball-running, and a retallick, whitelock, read combo for the lineout, and beauden barrett using the ball he won, he'd be an opposition's nightmare. you seem to want him to do everything by himself before you'll rate him. <br><br>
the best game i've seen pocock play was knocking the saffas out in 2011. he won that game pretty much by himself.</p></blockquote>
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How on earth can you compare a prop with a loose forward? What a bizarre comment.<br><br>
It's not about doing everything, it's about having better all-round rugby skills. For instance, I could never rate a flyhalf who could kick goals from everywhere, but was a poor tackler and runner. The rest of the team shouldn't have to compensate for his deficiencies.<br><br>
As to steals, it is not part of NZ rugby to have one guy assigned to do only that. I've mentioned before talking to a top rugby analyst in Aus who felt that this overemphasis on stealing pill was not helping Aus rugby. I just can't see a guy like Pocock with absolutely no running game and no ability to act as a link as being a first choice 7 in NZ rugby. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="609283" data-time="1472210800"><p>That's so shit. All kiwi defenders of an overseas player always fall back on the "nz supporters never see others as being any good"line.<br><br>Pocock is huge over the ball, but it's his only trick. He's slow, a passive tackler, and has little ball skill.<br><br>Hoopah is quick, and a breakdown menace. But isn't physical, and tends to go missing out wide for large periods of the game. I'm still waiting to see what his real strength is.<br><br>Both are penalty magnets.<br><br>What puts them ahead of Cane again?</p></blockquote>His real strength, you mentioned it, he is an opportunist, but can't normally wrestle it back when the chips are down hence flies around the field but is often inneffective and in danger of being a flat track bully.
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This is kind of academic, if Pocock played with Read and Kaino it might be easy to do a comparison.
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hurricane" data-cid="609270" data-time="1472208296">
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<p>Cane won't even be the starting AB number 7 two years from now. His decision making as evidenced in silly penalties he takes in super rugby alone indicate<br>
he is not a disciplined player.</p>
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<p>Same arguments were made about Nonu - who seemed to reduce his silly penalties when playing in black. He might not be starting 7 in two years - but you can say that for any of the 1-15 currently wearing black (well maybe not Whitelock and Retalick).</p>
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<p>I noticed on the green and gold site they left off number of rucks hit by the two Kiwi Flankers - wonder why?</p> -
<br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Gary" data-cid="609315" data-time="1472230647"><p>
I noticed on the green and gold site they left off number of rucks hit by the two Kiwi Flankers - wonder why?</p></blockquote>
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Prppably dont have the data for it. There is a guy from the forum who does the ruck stats himself for aussie teams+wallabies. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Stargazer" data-cid="609145" data-time="1472191321"><p>
Do we really need a separate topic for this? Again? It's cluttering the forum.</p></blockquote>
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I think so.<br><br>
I've avoided the "Fix Super Rugby" topic recently so am glad this is posted like this. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hurricane" data-cid="609266" data-time="1472207165"><p>
Who does New Zealand have - Cane? I would have Hoopah and Pocock ahead of him anyday.</p></blockquote>
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You're down on Sammy.<br><br>
So last Saturday's match where he outplayed the combined might of Poopah was an aberration?
