Secret Super rugby review: Axe a team from Australia and South Africa

Bones

Are those stats from super rugby or test rugby? Little bit pointless if only super rugby...

Sapetyvi

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Gary" data-cid="609315" data-time="1472230647">
I noticed on the green and gold site they left off number of rucks hit by the two Kiwi Flankers - wonder why?</blockquote>
 
Prppably dont have the data for it. There is a guy from the forum who does the ruck stats himself for aussie teams+wallabies.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Stargazer" data-cid="609145" data-time="1472191321">
Do we really need a separate topic for this? Again? It's cluttering the forum.</blockquote>
 
I think so. 
I've avoided the "Fix Super Rugby" topic recently so am glad this is posted like this.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hurricane" data-cid="609266" data-time="1472207165">
Who does New Zealand have - Cane? I would have Hoopah and Pocock ahead of him anyday.</blockquote>
 
You're down on Sammy. 
So last Saturday's match where he outplayed the combined might of Poopah was an aberration?

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="609268" data-time="1472207784">
You're out of your fucking mind.</blockquote>
 
Some people put it so much more eloquently...

booboo

Classic thread diversion

jegga

The article doesn't say axing a team is a definite though does it?

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="609300" data-time="1472218245">
<div>
I apologise for swearing at you - I realise that was a bit OTT, Your comment just caught me off guard especially after last saturday. No, I don't think I rate every New Zealand player as being the best in the world in his position by default just because he wears a black jersey, well maybe I do now that I stop to think about it, but they are the best team in the world for a reason.
 
Here is my more reasonable response 
 
Personally, I actually like Pocock (not a fan of Hoopah though) but I think if he were a NZ player, he'd probably be in the same weird position Todd's been in for the last few years. He's a very good player but doesn't have the game we expect from our opensides these days. Out and out fetchers just aren't as valued here as they are in Aus, especially when that comes at the cost of ball running skills. And yeah, you can point to Franks but he's a fucking prop, when he's not in scrums, his job is to hit rucks and he does it well.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
Fixed your post for you...

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nostrildamus" data-cid="609309" data-time="1472220796">
<div>
This is kind of academic, if Pocock played with Read and Kaino it might be easy to do a comparison.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Bingo - comparing individuals in a team sport is extremely difficult. If we had a big bruiser to play #8 in the Kefu style, along with Fardy and Pocock that would be a hell of a back row.
 
Not that it would make up for a shit tight five that doesn't turn up.

Unco

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hurricane" data-cid="609342" data-time="1472248519">
<div>
Fixed your post for you...
</div>
</blockquote>
That's your best response? How old are you? 10?

Frye

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="609362" data-time="1472251534">
<div>
That's your best response? How old are you? 10?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Most likely.
 
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">Behind Cane we have Savea who is very good I guess, but then who Matt Todd...Major LOL. I distinctly remember a super match towards the end where a wellington player ran straight over the top of him and Todd looked like chump.</blockquote>
 
Dismissing a bloody good player because he missed A tackle. 
 
Not really worth addressing.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hurricane" data-cid="609266" data-time="1472207165">
<div>
I think you are completely underselling Reid. He is a quality number 7. McMahon is also "isn't bad". That gives Australia 4 International quality number 7s. 
Hoopah, Pocock, Reid, McMahon not to mention Gill isn't bad either and by memory it was gill who had the most turnovers out of Australia's number 7s 
last year. 
Who does New Zealand have - Cane? I would have Hoopah and Pocock ahead of him anyday. Behind Cane we have Savea who is very good I guess, but then who 
Matt Todd...Major LOL. I distinctly remember a super match towards the end where a wellington player ran straight over the top of him and Todd looked like chump.
</div>
</blockquote>
How on earth was I underselling Reid? I didn't mention anything about his ability.
 
If Pocock was a Zim-Kiwi instead of an Zim-Aus I don't think he'd be the regular starter for Hansen coached teams for reasons that many have mentioned in this thread above (and in my response to Hydro below).
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="609281" data-time="1472210237">
<div>
I hardly think it is that ridiculous to think that Pocock/Hoopah are better than Cane. There are a lot of people who seem to think that every single All Black is better than every single Wallaby. I just don't think that is the case. If that is the case then there would almost be no way I could see us losing on Saturday. A lot of people on here don't like Pocock's "style" because he is always looking for the turnover and is a weak tackler. Okay. How much better would those turnovers look if he was turning the ball over and giving it to Barrett? Would Cane look anywhere near as good as a Wallaby?
</div>
</blockquote>
He probably would have last weekend because he likely would have tackled himself to a standstill - something the Wallabies seemed to actively avoid.
 
And on Pocock's style, as has been mentioned many times (Rancid in this thread) the ABs don't play a style that has one player constantly turnover ball and they haven't for ages even thought they had one of the best in the business at it. Would the ABs change their style for one player? I don't think so.

hurricane

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="609362" data-time="1472251534">
<div>
That's your best response? How old are you? 10?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Better than the foul langauage you come up with. Would you have preferred if I had sworn back at you. Is that the level of discourse you understand and respect?
 
Anyway - my response was designed to get a laugh out of you, and eventually get us to shake hands and move on. 
 
I do think you were OTT with your initial response, but perhaps I should call this quits and move on as a reconciliation does not appear likely.
 
Good luck to you.

Frank

Still not totally sure about Cane. But by fuck he was awesome last week.

Unco

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hurricane" data-cid="609369" data-time="1472252265">
<div>
Better than the foul langauage you come up with. Would you have preferred if I had sworn back at you. Is that the level of discourse you understand and respect?
 
Anyway - my response was designed to get a laugh out of you, and eventually get us to shake hands and move on. 
 
I do think you were OTT with your initial response, but perhaps I should call this quits and move on as a reconciliation does not appear likely.
 
Good luck to you.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
If you wanted us to shake hands and move on, you'd walk back some of the rubbish you said on the last page, not post a smart ass edit of my post. Hell, if you really didn't want things to go south, you could've started digging yourself out of your hole the minute you were called out but instead, all you did is dig yourself in deeper with more rubbish.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="609368" data-time="1472252219">
<div>
How on earth was I underselling Reid? I didn't mention anything about his ability.
 
If Pocock was a Zim-Kiwi instead of an Zim-Aus I don't think he'd be the regular starter for Hansen coached teams for reasons that many have mentioned in this thread above (and in my response to Hydro below).
 
 
He probably would have last weekend because he likely would have tackled himself to a standstill - something the Wallabies seemed to actively avoid.
 
And on Pocock's style, as has been mentioned many times (Rancid in this thread) the ABs don't play a style that has one player constantly turnover ball and they haven't for ages even thought they had one of the best in the business at it. Would the ABs change their style for one player? I don't think so.
</div>
</blockquote>
Well, Australia's top tacklers last week were Kuridrani with 17 and Hooper with 14. Both missed no tackles. No one has mentioned either of those feats in the post match wrap. Kuridrani was deservedly dropped as well. For his part Pocock missed 4 tackles last week.
 
Maybe the All Blacks would select Cane over Pocock because Cane fits their style more. I don't think that necessarily proves who is the better player, however. I have absolutely no doubt that Scotland would select A. Savea over Sam Cane because Scotland could do with a game breaker. Same with South Africa. South Africa would probably select Pocock over Cane as well. South Africa doesn't need a dominant tackler.
 
The original discussion, as I saw it, wasn't actually about whether Pocock would start for the All Blacks. It was who is a better player: Pocock, Hooper or Cane? I just used the fact that Pocock would look better in the All Blacks than he does in the Wallabies to back up my point. I wasn't saying Hansen would select Pocock ahead of Cane. Just because the All Blacks prioritise certain skill sets, it doesn't mean that everyone else prioritises those skill sets and a player is automatically better for fitting into the All Blacks system.
 
As to who is the best player out of those three, I really can't say. I think that most international teams would take Pocock or A.Savea over Sam Cane. Just as most other teams would have had Barrett ahead of Cruden years ago. I don't think that answers the question though.

antipodean

I've said this before and it's worth pointing out again that the All Blacks play a style of defence that is offensive in nature. Anyone who has watched them play over the last decade should have noticed this. They seek to drive their opponents behind the advantage line until they either make a mistake or have no options left but to kick under pressure where our back three are unmatched in their ability to exploit a transitioning defence. For all his skills, that is why Cane is first choice now; his tackling and motor are better than the alternatives. 
Pocock has never tackled someone in that manner. Given he can't run with the ball either, there is no way he would make the All Blacks the way he plays the game and his obvious deficiencies. Whenever I hear the myth that the average New Zealander possesses an astute rugby brain, I just refer to the number of them who claim Pocock would walk into the All Blacks. 
According to the ESPN stats I saw for last weekend Pocock missed four tackles and coughed up the ball twice. I don't know what basis there is for the claim he's intelligent either, apart from his talent for self promotion. 
Watching the RWC I formed the opinion that Fardy and Hoopah (in that order) were more instrumental in the Wallabies victories as well. Now the Wallabies may overlook the negative aspects of his play for his undoubted strength, but it compromises them. 
And on topic, the ARU would be well served having one less team in Super Rugby, particularly with the introduction of the NRC achieving much the same goal of adding depth.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="609387" data-time="1472255777">
<div>
I've said this before and it's worth pointing out again that theAll Blacks play a style of defence that is offensive in nature. Anyone who has watched them play over the last decade should have noticed this. They seek to drive their opponents behind the advantage line until they either make a mistake or have no options left but to kick under pressure where our back three are unmatched in their ability to exploit a transitioning defence. For all his skills, that is why Cane is first choice now; his takling and motor are better than the alternatives. 
Pocock has never tackled someone in that manner. Given he can't run with the ball either, there is no way he would make the All Blacks given the way he plays the game and his obvious deficiencies. Whenever I hear the myth that the average New Zealander possesses an astute rugby brain, I just refer to the number ofthem who claim Pocock would walk into the All Blacks. 
According to the ESPN stats I saw for last weekend Pocock missed four tackles and coughed up the ball twice. I don't know what basis there is for the claim he's intelligent either, apart from his talent for self promotion. 
Watching the RWC I formed the opinion that Fardy and Hoopah (in that order) were more instrumental in the Wallabies victories as well. Now the Wallabies may overlook the negative aspects of his play for his undoubted strength, but it compromises them. 
And on topic, the ARU would be well served having one less team in Super Rugby, particulalry with the introduction of the NRC achieving much the same goal of adding depth.
</div>
</blockquote>
Pocock is a hugely intelligent footballer. The quick conversion taken by the Brumbies gained his team 7 points and exposed a glaring loop hole in the rules. I never saw any other captain give such an order over the season.
 
As I said Pocock may not make the All Blacks but Sam Cane probably wouldn't make the Wallabies. Pocock ha a different skill set to Cane which may fit the way some teams want to play.

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="609388" data-time="1472256105">
Pocock is a hugely intelligent footballer. The quick conversion taken by the Brumbies gained his team 7 points and exposed a glaring loop hole in the rules. I never saw any other captain give such an order over the season.</blockquote>
Yes it showed an astute appreciation for the laws but, how often did those circumstances eventuate? I recall one other time where the ref was quick enough to instruct the kicker not to attempt the conversion.

Baron Silas Greenback

Pocock isn't fit to carry Canes water bottle. 
He is just pulls out a couple of ruck steals and then does nothing much else. I used to buy into the hype and get worried about him, and then realised that he never had much impact.
Pocock is the new myth. In a test match team I want a 7 that tackles hard and hits rucks... not someone who floats around the game looking for the very occasional steal.
 
And as for the prediction of who not be playing in 2 years time.... the new rules suit a player like Cane, not a player like Pocock.

The Silver Fern

Secret Super rugby review: Axe a team from Australia and South Africa