Chiefs vs Wales, June 14
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<p>To be fair to Gatland, I doubt that he spent a lot of time intensively preparing this team for this match. He'll have run out a scratch team of Welshmen. On the other hand - Rennie's had two weeks to prepare his men for this clash.</p>
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<p>It's got a few shades of this 2007 game against the Munster 2nd XV, which the ABs 2nds were well on the way to losing but for the cavalry on the bench.</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2164'>http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2164</a></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="588034" data-time="1465940571">
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<p>I'd stick up for him if his team had a game plan that looked like something other than a parody of Blackadder goes Forth parodying WWI - run ponderously straight into the opposition with the ball (and also without it). Some of that may be down to the plays, but by the comments of our Welsh posters, there's also a few players sitting back at home in Wales who might have been able to play differently - yet don't fit the Gats mould. </p>
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<p>It's hard to know what is going on. I know everyone likes to label Wales as playing Warrenball based on how Wasps played, and the more direct style of Wales now. Perhaps it comes down to the cattle he has. When Gatland coached Waikato to win the 2006 NPC they did adopt the rush defence but the backs scored a bucket load of tries.</p>
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<p>Speaking of the rush defence, surely Shaun Edwards must be under pressure? Wales have leaked tries in their last 3 games.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="SammyC" data-cid="588023" data-time="1465938494">
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<p>Well he's certainly a better coach than Gatland :)</p>
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<p>I was thinking about that, Dave Rennie would have been quietly smiling to himself as his stocks up north continue to rise.</p> -
<p>I could have run faster than half that Welsh backline ffs. The word ponderous has been used already and it is spot on - aside from the odd crash ball from a good angle the backs looks shite. Almost seemed like the Welsh were planning to do an AB's to the chiefs, stay in touch and then amp things up through the back end of the match. Except no one told the chiefs who if anything increased their intensity as the game went on.</p>
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<p>Good on Gatland for pushing back about fringe/bench players asking why they aren't starting or in the squad. He must be gutted they rolled over so easily and looked so ineffective.</p> -
<p>huge blow to the team confidence though, first leading the ABs for 3/4 of the match and then getting reamed by an understrength Chiefs team...gonna be a huge ask to get back up against an AB team with much, much more room to improve than the Welsh appear to have.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bovidae" data-cid="588057" data-time="1465943903">
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<p>It's hard to know what is going on. I know everyone likes to label Wales as playing Warrenball based on how Wasps played, and the more direct style of Wales now. Perhaps it comes down to the cattle he has. When Gatland coached Waikato to win the 2006 NPC they did adopt the rush defence but the backs scored a bucket load of tries.</p>
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<p>Speaking of the rush defence, surely Shaun Edwards must be under pressure? <strong>Wales have leaked tries in their last 3 games</strong>.</p>
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<p>Yeah, but they were playing the three best teams in the world. insert smiley face</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="588170" data-time="1465954942">
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<p>huge blow to the team confidence though, first leading the ABs for 3/4 of the match and then getting reamed by an understrength Chiefs team...gonna be a huge ask to get back up against an AB team with much, much more room to improve than the Welsh appear to have.</p>
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<p>I think the first choice players for Wales will be okay. The Welsh forwards were pretty good albeit a little inaccurate and the backs needed to insert themselves more in the game in the 2nd half. I think they've got some improvement in them. The biggest thing for them is defensively dealing with the AB fresh legs in the final quarter.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="ACT Crusader" data-cid="588208" data-time="1465961779">
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<p>I think the first choice players for Wales will be okay. The Welsh forwards were pretty good albeit a little inaccurate and the backs needed to insert themselves more in the game in the 2nd half.<strong> I think they've got some improvement in them.</strong> The biggest thing for them is defensively dealing with the AB fresh legs in the final quarter.</p>
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<p>Scarily for Wales so too do the All Blacks, probably more so if brutal reality is faced.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Higgins" data-cid="588215" data-time="1465962613">
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<p>Scarily for Wales so too do the All Blacks, probably more so if brutal reality is faced.</p>
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<p>I agree, it appears both sides have some improvement. The interest will be if both sides can actually do it.</p>
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<p>A lot of AB supporters have thought we didn't play well, first test rust and we'll definitely get better in the second test. I tend to think that we will have to be patient as players gain more experience with each other. I watched the test again last night and both in the forwards and the backs we were missing those little things that I guess were taken for granted over a number of years - running consistent effective support lines, competing at the breakdown in pods of two or three, straighten/draw/pass. Those things aren't all fixable overnight because it's about knowing what the guy next to you instinctively does in certain situations. </p>
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<p>I remember McCaw saying about Rodders "I've become used to him being there and doing what he's always done". That familiarity can bring with it great confidence.</p> -
<p>Ok - I'm confused.</p>
<p>Haven't watched all the game yet, but from what I saw of Wales it was men against boys. Body language said it all.</p>
<p>They were beaten and got beaten up.</p>
<p>However given our next opponent at the u20s is Wales, and they only lost to Ireland by a few points at the death - the obvious disconnect is; what happens to age grades in NH between u20s and the seniors?</p>
<p>And why is our position reversed i.e. we don't seem to compete as well at u20 stage as the NH? </p> -
<p>I an not sure what you are inferring Crash as our record at the Under 20s is still far superior to all others. Granted we have lost a few more games than we as New Zealanders are accustomed to but overall we are still streets ahead of every other contender. Perhaps it is these last few years when our normal rugby dominance has not been what it usually is?</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby_Under_20_Championship#Team_records'>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby_Under_20_Championship#Team_records</a></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bovidae" data-cid="588017" data-time="1465936610"><p>I'm going to stick up for Gatland here. From the comments I've read a lot of the fringe players where asking him what they needed to do to force their way into the test team. This game was the perfect opportunity for those players to prove they were good enough - they failed.<br><br>
It's a long way to come to only hold tackle bags so I can fully understand the rationale behind the fixture from Wales' POV. If the tour was only going to be the 3 tests then either Wales should have reduced the squad from 35 to 26 or be prepared to give everyone a chance vs the ABs. This was a compromise.</p></blockquote>
I'd have no issue with the fixture with regards fringe players as we have no "A" team anymore. <br>
I realise a cross over is inevitable to some extent but the issue is using players who clearly shouldn't be risked in a midweek runout.<br>
Warburton hadn't played any rugby for 6 weeks I think prior to the test, he played 70odd minutes against the best side in the world. He then is expected to back that up 3 days later, and again this weekend ?<br>
Bet Hanson was having a chuckle hearing that.<br>
Play a couple of midweek games but bring enough players to handle this, essentially 2 squads. Use it for development, best place to learn IMHO. -
<p>Maybe it's all a conspiracy. Gatland :diablo: telling his 2nd stringers to get smashed by the Chiefs, so everyone's thinking that Wales are shit, and then on Saturday the 1st stringers suddenly know how to play
and offer real opposition to the All Blacks. :sarcastic:</p>
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<p><span style="font-size:10px;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><<insert Tui ad here >></span></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MiketheSnow" data-cid="587988" data-time="1465926267">
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<p>What a match, and what a result.<br><br>
Thoroughly deserved.<br><br>
Rennie and the Chiefs did a Japan on us. Knew they were smaller so played quicker & smarter and didn't get caught in possession. Superb.<br><br>
And the Welsh gameplan played into their hands. And critically Gatland and Wales didn't cotton on that slowing the game down and playing a forward dominated match would have created space and mismatches later on.<br><br>
Saturday will be interesting.<br><br>
NZ to score +50 is a certainty. Tried to place a cumulative +150 pts across the three tests bet but noone would take it.<br><br>
Matthew Morgan our best player and only attacking threat. Charteris the only forward who put his hand up for selection.<br><br>
If Morgan doesn't make the 23 at least, then Gatland is bullshitting about wanting to play a wider, more expansive, higher tempo game.<br>
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Warburton should have been head and shoulders above the rest and wasn't. Tired? More likely covering for the other back row forwards who are not up to the task. Combine the two and fairly anonymous.<br><br>
Scott Williams was so disappointing. Second rate version of Roberts. Playing to script?<br><br>
Something drastic has to happen. Unless Wales get closer than 18pts in the next two tests, then Gatland has done his Lions chances irreparable harm.<br><br>
Wales lose both remaining tests with NZ scoring 50+ and Wales not scoring at least score 3-4 tries in defeat then you have to wonder if Team Gatland can remain. Elements may well survive, but not the unit. And rightly so.<br><br>
Too many Welsh players are not playing matches of highest intensity and tempo regularly. The biggest matches that most play outside of tests are the Pro12 Judgment Day derby games.<br><br>
They're not used to this intensity and pace of the SH game.<br><br>
But it's a Catch 22. Let them play in more competitive leagues but see our own league suffer and lose control of availability.<br><br>
This loss is a pivotal moment in Welsh rugby history. We can choose to follow and be forever in the chasing pack. Or lead. Choose to come up with innovative coaching and a style of play which suits our mentality, personality and personnel.<br><br>
Something a litle like this<br><br>
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<p>Jones really came of age on the Lions tour. Great player and by alls counts a fantastic tourist. I felt he was criminally under-used for periods thereafter.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="588050" data-time="1465943279">
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<p>To be fair to Gatland, I doubt that he spent a lot of time intensively preparing this team for this match. He'll have run out a scratch team of Welshmen. On the other hand - Rennie's had two weeks to prepare his men for this clash.</p>
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<p>It's got a few shades of this 2007 game against the Munster 2nd XV, which the ABs 2nds were well on the way to losing but for the cavalry on the bench.</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2164'>http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2164</a></p>
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<p>If that's the case, then his bosses should ream him a new one. He's coaching Wales.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crash" data-cid="588238" data-time="1465968619">
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<p>Ok - I'm confused...</p>
<p>However given our next opponent at the u20s is Wales, and they only lost to Ireland by a few points at the death - the obvious disconnect is; what happens to age grades in NH between u20s and the seniors?</p>
<p>And why is our position reversed i.e. we don't seem to compete as well at u20 stage as the NH? </p>
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<p>We've been confused about that for about 30 years.</p>
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<p>Regional and national coaches slowly realising that 'if you're good enough, you're old enough' and giving recent U20 players starting roles at regional level instead of bringing in SH 'never will bes / were but not any mores'.</p>
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<p>Going to take time unfortunately.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Stargazer" data-cid="588254" data-time="1465972717">
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<p>Maybe it's all a conspiracy. Gatland :diablo: telling his 2nd stringers to get smashed by the Chiefs, so everyone's thinking that Wales are shit, and then on Saturday the 1st stringers suddenly know how to play and offer real opposition to the All Blacks. :sarcastic:</p>
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<p><span style="font-size:10px;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><<insert Tui ad here >></span></p>
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<p>Ha ha. Thought about posting something similar in the vein of 'rope-a-dope'.</p>
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<p>Lose to England, first two tests and mid-week match, Shag experiments with selection for 3rd Test and Wales rise from the ashes.</p>
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<p>Then gave myself an uppercut.</p> -
There's not a lot of depth of talent in Wales and there's a big drop off in quality once you go past their first team.<br><br><br>
As an example, the pro 12 just finished and the Welsh teams finished 5th, 7th, 8th and 10th. Just one team in the top 6. <br><br><br>
They've been an excellent well drilled side under Gatland. Big pack, huge backs, kick long, go through phases, knock over penalties with accurate kicking. They've been very consistent in their performances and results. They do well in Europe and badly against SH opposition. -
<p>Since the 2011 U20 WC - which includes Wales' victory against NZ at the 2012 U-20 World Cup group stage - the following Welsh players have advanced to the national squad:</p>
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<p><strong>BACKS</strong><br>
Liam Williams, Tom Prydie, Matthew Morgan, Hallam Amos, Eli Walker, Owen Williams, Cory Allen, Tyler Morgan, Gareth Anscombe (played for NZ U20s)</p>
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<p><strong>FORWARDS</strong><br>
Rhodri Jones, Rob Evans, Samson Lee, Ellis Jenkins, Dan Baker, Ross Moriarty (played for England U20s)<br><br><br>
In contrast NZ have selected the following just from 2011:<br><br>
Beauden Barrett, Waisake Naholo, Lima Sopoaga, Charles Piutau, TJ Perenara<br>
Ben Tameifuna, Steven Luatua, Brodie Retallick, Same Cane<br><br><br>
The big problem is the majority of the Welsh U20 players don't play in the big matches - European rugby - often enough and when they do get selected to the national side rarely get on - because we're rarely in a comfortable enough position to bring them on.<br><br>
Unlike NZ for example who have Cane as GOAT's 'immediate' replacement with 30+ caps.<br><br>
Better structure, development, coaching and nurturing in NZ.</p>
