Chiefs vs Wales, June 14

Higgins

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="ACT Crusader" data-cid="588208" data-time="1465961779">
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I think the first choice players for Wales will be okay. The Welsh forwards were pretty good albeit a little inaccurate and the backs needed to insert themselves more in the game in the 2nd half. I think they've got some improvement in them. The biggest thing for them is defensively dealing with the AB fresh legs in the final quarter.
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Scarily for Wales so too do the All Blacks, probably more so if brutal reality is faced.

ACT Crusader

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Higgins" data-cid="588215" data-time="1465962613">
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Scarily for Wales so too do the All Blacks, probably more so if brutal reality is faced.
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I agree, it appears both sides have some improvement. The interest will be if both sides can actually do it.
 
A lot of AB supporters have thought we didn't play well, first test rust and we'll definitely get better in the second test. I tend to think that we will have to be patient as players gain more experience with each other. I watched the test again last night and both in the forwards and the backs we were missing those little things that I guess were taken for granted over a number of years - running consistent effective support lines, competing at the breakdown in pods of two or three, straighten/draw/pass. Those things aren't all fixable overnight because it's about knowing what the guy next to you instinctively does in certain situations. 
 
I remember McCaw saying about Rodders "I've become used to him being there and doing what he's always done". That familiarity can bring with it great confidence.

Crash

Ok - I'm confused.
Haven't watched all the game yet, but from what I saw of Wales it was men against boys. Body language said it all.
They were beaten and got beaten up.
However given our next opponent at the u20s is Wales, and they only lost to Ireland by a few points at the death - the obvious disconnect is; what happens to age grades in NH between u20s and the seniors?
And why is our position reversed i.e. we don't seem to compete as well at u20 stage as the NH?

Higgins

I an not sure what you are inferring Crash as our record at the Under 20s is still far superior to all others. Granted we have lost a few more games than we as New Zealanders are accustomed to but overall we are still streets ahead of every other contender. Perhaps it is these last few years when our normal rugby dominance has not been what it usually is?
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby_Under_20_Championship#Team_records'>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby_Under_20_Championship#Team_records</a>

pooler fan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bovidae" data-cid="588017" data-time="1465936610">I'm going to stick up for Gatland here. From the comments I've read a lot of the fringe players where asking him what they needed to do to force their way into the test team. This game was the perfect opportunity for those players to prove they were good enough - they failed. 
It's a long way to come to only hold tackle bags so I can fully understand the rationale behind the fixture from Wales' POV. If the tour was only going to be the 3 tests then either Wales should have reduced the squad from 35 to 26 or be prepared to give everyone a chance vs the ABs. This was a compromise.</blockquote>
I'd have no issue with the fixture with regards fringe players as we have no "A" team anymore. 
I realise a cross over is inevitable to some extent but the issue is using players who clearly shouldn't be risked in a midweek runout. 
Warburton hadn't played any rugby for 6 weeks I think prior to the test, he played 70odd minutes against the best side in the world. He then is expected to back that up 3 days later, and again this weekend ? 
Bet Hanson was having a chuckle hearing that. 
Play a couple of midweek games but bring enough players to handle this, essentially 2 squads. Use it for development, best place to learn IMHO.

Stargazer

Maybe it's all a conspiracy. Gatland :diablo: telling his 2nd stringers to get smashed by the Chiefs, so everyone's thinking that Wales are shit, and then on Saturday the 1st stringers suddenly know how to play and offer real opposition to the All Blacks. :sarcastic:
 
<<insert Tui ad here >>

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MiketheSnow" data-cid="587988" data-time="1465926267">
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What a match, and what a result. 
Thoroughly deserved. 
Rennie and the Chiefs did a Japan on us. Knew they were smaller so played quicker & smarter and didn't get caught in possession. Superb. 
And the Welsh gameplan played into their hands. And critically Gatland and Wales didn't cotton on that slowing the game down and playing a forward dominated match would have created space and mismatches later on. 
Saturday will be interesting. 
NZ to score +50 is a certainty. Tried to place a cumulative +150 pts across the three tests bet but noone would take it. 
Matthew Morgan our best player and only attacking threat. Charteris the only forward who put his hand up for selection. 
If Morgan doesn't make the 23 at least, then Gatland is bullshitting about wanting to play a wider, more expansive, higher tempo game. 
 
Warburton should have been head and shoulders above the rest and wasn't. Tired? More likely covering for the other back row forwards who are not up to the task. Combine the two and fairly anonymous. 
Scott Williams was so disappointing. Second rate version of Roberts. Playing to script? 
Something drastic has to happen. Unless Wales get closer than 18pts in the next two tests, then Gatland has done his Lions chances irreparable harm. 
Wales lose both remaining tests with NZ scoring 50+ and Wales not scoring at least score 3-4 tries in defeat then you have to wonder if Team Gatland can remain. Elements may well survive, but not the unit. And rightly so. 
Too many Welsh players are not playing matches of highest intensity and tempo regularly. The biggest matches that most play outside of tests are the Pro12 Judgment Day derby games. 
They're not used to this intensity and pace of the SH game. 
But it's a Catch 22. Let them play in more competitive leagues but see our own league suffer and lose control of availability. 
This loss is a pivotal moment in Welsh rugby history. We can choose to follow and be forever in the chasing pack. Or lead. Choose to come up with innovative coaching and a style of play which suits our mentality, personality and personnel. 
Something a litle like this

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Jones really came of age on the Lions tour. Great player and by alls counts a fantastic tourist. I felt he was criminally under-used for periods thereafter.

MiketheSnow

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="588050" data-time="1465943279">
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To be fair to Gatland, I doubt that he spent a lot of time intensively preparing this team for this match. He'll have run out a scratch team of Welshmen. On the other hand - Rennie's had two weeks to prepare his men for this clash.
 
It's got a few shades of this 2007 game against the Munster 2nd XV, which the ABs 2nds were well on the way to losing but for the cavalry on the bench.
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2164'>http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/teamsheet.asp?MT_ID=2164</a>
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If that's the case, then his bosses should ream him a new one. He's coaching Wales.

MiketheSnow

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crash" data-cid="588238" data-time="1465968619">
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Ok - I'm confused...
However given our next opponent at the u20s is Wales, and they only lost to Ireland by a few points at the death - the obvious disconnect is; what happens to age grades in NH between u20s and the seniors?
And why is our position reversed i.e. we don't seem to compete as well at u20 stage as the NH? 
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We've been confused about that for about 30 years.
 
Regional and national coaches slowly realising that 'if you're good enough, you're old enough' and giving recent U20 players starting roles at regional level instead of bringing in SH 'never will bes / were but not any mores'.
 
Going to take time unfortunately.

MiketheSnow

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Stargazer" data-cid="588254" data-time="1465972717">
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Maybe it's all a conspiracy. Gatland :diablo: telling his 2nd stringers to get smashed by the Chiefs, so everyone's thinking that Wales are shit, and then on Saturday the 1st stringers suddenly know how to play and offer real opposition to the All Blacks. :sarcastic:
 
<<insert Tui ad here >>
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Ha ha. Thought about posting something similar in the vein of 'rope-a-dope'.
 
Lose to England, first two tests and mid-week match, Shag experiments with selection for 3rd Test and Wales rise from the ashes.
 
Then gave myself an uppercut.

profitius

There's not a lot of depth of talent in Wales and there's a big drop off in quality once you go past their first team. 
As an example, the pro 12 just finished and the Welsh teams finished 5th, 7th, 8th and 10th. Just one team in the top 6. 
They've been an excellent well drilled side under Gatland. Big pack, huge backs, kick long, go through phases, knock over penalties with accurate kicking. They've been very consistent in their performances and results. They do well in Europe and badly against SH opposition.

MiketheSnow

Since the 2011 U20 WC - which includes Wales' victory against NZ at the 2012 U-20 World Cup group stage - the following Welsh players have advanced to the national squad:
 
BACKS 
Liam Williams, Tom Prydie, Matthew Morgan, Hallam Amos, Eli Walker, Owen Williams, Cory Allen, Tyler Morgan, Gareth Anscombe (played for NZ U20s)
 
FORWARDS 
Rhodri Jones, Rob Evans, Samson Lee, Ellis Jenkins, Dan Baker, Ross Moriarty (played for England U20s) 
In contrast NZ have selected the following just from 2011: 
Beauden Barrett, Waisake Naholo, Lima Sopoaga, Charles Piutau, TJ Perenara 
Ben Tameifuna, Steven Luatua, Brodie Retallick, Same Cane 
The big problem is the majority of the Welsh U20 players don't play in the big matches - European rugby - often enough and when they do get selected to the national side rarely get on - because we're rarely in a comfortable enough position to bring them on. 
Unlike NZ for example who have Cane as GOAT's 'immediate' replacement with 30+ caps. 
Better structure, development, coaching and nurturing in NZ.

Higgins

Numbers of caps is not always always a great measuring yardstick given that a two minute appearance still counts as a cap. Using MtS's 30+ caps example for Sam Cane above that might translate into something like (and this is a unresearched guess) 400 or 450 so total minutes or something more akin to the equivalent of about just six full games. Still you can learn a lot just by being included in the matchday 23 as well as following the play from to close confines of the sideline bench. This is probably more so when you team invariably win,s especially when they pull off those late escapes when all looks lost.

Immenso Rapido

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MiketheSnow" data-cid="588355" data-time="1465996228">
Since the 2011 U20 WC - which includes Wales' victory against NZ at the 2012 U-20 World Cup group stage - the following Welsh players have advanced to the national squad: BACKS 
Liam Williams, Tom Prydie, Matthew Morgan, Hallam Amos, Eli Walker, Owen Williams, Cory Allen, Tyler Morgan, Gareth Anscombe (played for NZ U20s) FORWARDS 
Rhodri Jones, Rob Evans, Samson Lee, Ellis Jenkins, Dan Baker, Ross Moriarty (played for England U20s) 
In contrast NZ have selected the following just from 2011: 
Beauden Barrett, Waisake Naholo, Lima Sopoaga, Charles Piutau, TJ Perenara 
Ben Tameifuna, Steven Luatua, Brodie Retallick, Same Cane 
The big problem is the majority of the Welsh U20 players don't play in the big matches - European rugby - often enough and when they do get selected to the national side rarely get on - because we're rarely in a comfortable enough position to bring them on. 
Unlike NZ for example who have Cane as GOAT's 'immediate' replacement with 30+ caps. 
Better structure, development, coaching and nurturing in NZ.</blockquote>
 
Distorted a bit by the fact that the 2011 NZ U20s were awesome. And 2012 was the tight time to start the next 4 year cycle at AB level. 
Since then they've been a bit mud. 
I think until last weekend Tuipolotu was the only one since 2012 onwards who had graduated to AB level. Now Ardie Savea has as well (and that's been a long time coming for a guy so anointed). Ofa T has been in squads but not yet an AB, but he was diabolically bad at U20 level in 2012. 
But I digress

bobily

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="588491" data-time="1466028820">
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 Ofa T has been in squads but not yet an AB, but he was diabolically bad at U20 level in 2012. 

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He was bad, but to be fair to him, they kept playing him at loosehead prop.

SimonAdd

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MiketheSnow" data-cid="588355" data-time="1465996228">
<div>
Since the 2011 U20 WC - which includes Wales' victory against NZ at the 2012 U-20 World Cup group stage - the following Welsh players have advanced to the national squad:
 
BACKS 
Liam Williams, Tom Prydie, Matthew Morgan, Hallam Amos, Eli Walker, Owen Williams, Cory Allen, Tyler Morgan, Gareth Anscombe (played for NZ U20s)
 
FORWARDS 
Rhodri Jones, Rob Evans, Samson Lee, Ellis Jenkins, Dan Baker, Ross Moriarty (played for England U20s) 
In contrast NZ have selected the following just from 2011: 
Beauden Barrett, Waisake Naholo, Lima Sopoaga, Charles Piutau, TJ Perenara 
Ben Tameifuna, Steven Luatua, Brodie Retallick, Same Cane 
The big problem is the majority of the Welsh U20 players don't play in the big matches - European rugby - often enough and when they do get selected to the national side rarely get on - because we're rarely in a comfortable enough position to bring them on. 
Unlike NZ for example who have Cane as GOAT's 'immediate' replacement with 30+ caps. 
Better structure, development, coaching and nurturing in NZ.
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The 2011 u20 vintage from both England and New Zealand (the two finalists) was fantastic though. They already make up the spine of the England team and now look likely to do the same with the All Blacks. Wales just didn't have the same quality at the same time. Wait for the 2013 guys to come through (they're only just doing in England and New Zealand) and Wales should have some promising players.

Chris B.

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MiketheSnow" data-cid="588268" data-time="1465975716">
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If that's the case, then his bosses should ream him a new one. He's coaching Wales.
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Can only do what you've got time to do.
 
Last week his focus would surely have been on the test match. Played on Saturday night.
 
Sunday doubtless a recovery session and travel to Hamilton.
 
Monday the training run for the Chiefs match.
 
Tuesday - the match.
 
The dirty-dirty players have doubtless been doing some stuff in-between times - but that's not going to lead to running out a cohesive team.

booboo

Just getting to the thread now ... 
Only two days late to this concversatio...

Thanks for the heaads up Nick about being on 502. Managed to catch the kast 60mins if the game :)
Have got as far on the thread as the Beaver "try". Ref said several times he did not see a grounding so if the TMO couldn't see it the ruling had to go the way it did. You'd have to have thought it was a try on "balance of probabilities" but requirement is for clear and obvious evidence.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="587849" data-time="1465890810">
Yeah - but where was the evidence that it was held up? The only thing lacking was a camera angle - the balance of likelihoods was a try - and very clearly in favour of a try. 
Stupid decision in my opinion.</blockquote>
 
See above

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="587855" data-time="1465891190">
Is that a definite refereeing protocol? If there's any doubt with a "try no try" ruling then the benefit of the doubt goes in favour of the defending team?</blockquote>
 
No. There's no " benefit of the doubt". There is only "clear and obvious evidence".

The Silver Fern

Chiefs vs Wales, June 14