McKenzie, Mo'unga etc
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@Mr-Fish said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris To be clear, there are three 'mistakes' in here - it's just repeated coverage of the same three.
One was the pass back during the Argentina game - which Beauden Barrett and Jordie Barrett were both in a position to catch but each left to the other brother.
The other was the offload attempt after getting on the outside of the Australian defence. It almost resulted in an excellent try but McKenzie wasn't able to get the ball away while also getting on the outside of Valetini.
And the third was the stupid flick pass - that one I'll absolutely give you. But also, it was McKenzie that gained them 30 metres in that same passage of play which had them just 10 metres out from the try line. So while he bombed the try, without him on the park the All Blacks would have been back on the halfway line instead of defending a scrum 10 metres out from the opposition goal line.
There was also the inside pass to an unmarked Reece inside the oppositions 22 that was thrown behind him to fuck up a try.
and I could look and find a lot more getting timed out penalty kick etc . -
We are at a funny place with 10. We've moved from DC to BB, RM and DM. The last three are full of x factor and have been raved about based on excellence at super rugby. In turn as a result every young 10 wants to be one of those but very few want to be DC.
At the same time the quality of Super rugby has dropped especially in the last 5 years meaning that a test match skill set is simply never required to win.Where does that leave us? Our best three 10s are flawed but can handle test match speed and pressure (maybe not always at 10 but certainly at 15).
We have no young 10s who have shown they are up to that level of pace and pressure at 10(see lower calibre of super rugby) and we wont really know who might for a year or two.
Better to bring them into a settled team and just change a 10 to try them than a team still getting used to new systems, structures and approach.
Until we get the loosies sorted then we will be well on the way.
(Probably worth giving plummer 30 mins in the third bledisloe all the same unless in training they recognised he wasnt quite ready yet). -
Were just in that gap when the old hands are at the end of their careers but there are no young bucks close enough to replace them yet. 2024 and 2025 are going to be a bit meh until we get a decent 10.
(see canes results for the first 15 years of super and blues results after spencer for where we are). -
Is Tom Taylor still playing🤪? I'd take a guy like him these days. Fark I'd take a poor man's Grant Fox. Just a fella who can kick for field position and can shift the pill. We have plenty of talent out wide.
Will be hilarious if BB plays a blinder though. Plenty of humble 🐦⬛ .
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God, this thread is like banging your head against a wall. Like I said way up the thread, funny how it’s only a certain fan base digging their heels in here. End of the day, people can push narratives however they want for players they prefer. Come 2026(possibly earlier), we will be able to get all the answers.
End of the day, Dmac has been our best option this year and has been trusted by the coaches to deliver the game plan. They have stuck with him up until now so let’s see if there are any significant changes to it with Beaudy stepping in. I trust BB to deliver, I just prefer an eye on the future and these are tests Dmac should be starting to gain that experience as the potential guy for us moving forward.
Time will tell.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
Is Tom Taylor still playing🤪? I'd take a guy like him these days. Fark I'd take a poor man's Grant Fox. Just a fella who can kick for field position and can shift the pill. We have plenty of talent out wide.
Will be hilarious if BB plays a blinder though. Plenty of humble 🐦⬛ .
Tom Taylor's debut was possibly the best we've seen from a 10 in the last 20 years. Lima Sopoaga's might just pip it but until that point in time, Taylor's was just so incredibly composed and assured.
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@Chris As others have mentioned, there are only three incidents here.
The first in the Argentina game, Dmac passed it to Beauden/Jordie, both of which looked at the other and didn't catch it. You also fail to mention how the entire backline was scrambling at that moment because ARDIE had just thrown a pass 20 metres over the backline and they all are running back scrambling. Firstly, that's not even a bombed try which you claimed you were bringing examples of, and secondly this was primarily on Ardie, no chance Dmac takes the blame for this.
The second example, was the offload attempt after getting on the outside of the Australian defense, where it was slightly forward to Jordan. Dmac was the sole reason this opportunity was created in the first place, but even this was not a 'bombed try'. To call skinning a defender on the outside and then not offloading perfectly at pace to Jordan a 'bombed try' is ridiculous. The only reason Jordan even got into the gap was because the pass was forward so by definition there was no bombing here, if he passes it backwards Jordan gets tackled.
Your only valid example was the failed flick attempt to Williams on the inside. THAT was a bombed try, and probably his worst play of the year.
Your other example of his pass to an 'unmarked' Reece. Firstly, that breakout started with McKenzie (once again) creating something and running from near our 22 and running the entire field up to their 22. Reece had a defender between him and McKenzie so was not unmarked. And even the commentators said Reece overran his line to the point that the pass wasnt on.
So really only ONE bombed try.
Thank you at least for providing examples.
Because that one flick pass is the only 'bombed try' I remember.
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@kpkanz thanks for saving me from having to type all that bro.
@Chris I think you need to remember that 'walking on water' isn't the real bar here - all McKenzie has to do to deserve selection is be better than Barrett - and I honestly don't understand how anyone who has watched rugby over the last couple of years could think he's not.
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@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@kpkanz thanks for saving me from having to type all that bro.
@Chris I think you need to remember that 'walking on water' isn't the real bar here - all McKenzie has to do to deserve selection is be better than Barrett - and I honestly don't understand how anyone who has watched rugby over the last couple of years could think he's not.
But I am not arguing Barret is better he isn’t they are both shit.
I am saying D Mac has been poor I never said Barrett was better. -
@kpkanz said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris As others have mentioned, there are only three incidents here.
The first in the Argentina game, Dmac passed it to Beauden/Jordie, both of which looked at the other and didn't catch it. You also fail to mention how the entire backline was scrambling at that moment because ARDIE had just thrown a pass 20 metres over the backline and they all are running back scrambling. Firstly, that's not even a bombed try which you claimed you were bringing examples of, and secondly this was primarily on Ardie, no chance Dmac takes the blame for this.
The second example, was the offload attempt after getting on the outside of the Australian defense, where it was slightly forward to Jordan. Dmac was the sole reason this opportunity was created in the first place, but even this was not a 'bombed try'. To call skinning a defender on the outside and then not offloading perfectly at pace to Jordan a 'bombed try' is ridiculous. The only reason Jordan even got into the gap was because the pass was forward so by definition there was no bombing here, if he passes it backwards Jordan gets tackled.
Your only valid example was the failed flick attempt to Williams on the inside. THAT was a bombed try, and probably his worst play of the year.
Your other example of his pass to an 'unmarked' Reece. Firstly, that breakout started with McKenzie (once again) creating something and running from near our 22 and running the entire field up to their 22. Reece had a defender between him and McKenzie so was not unmarked. And even the commentators said Reece overran his line to the point that the pass wasnt on.
So really only ONE bombed try.
Thank you at least for providing examples.
Because that one flick pass is the only 'bombed try' I remember.
No it is not there are 3 there.D Mac threw the passes, but for you everyone else on the field was at fault.
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The first in the Argentina game, Dmac passed it to Beauden/Jordie, both of which looked at the other and didn't catch it.
Looked to me like he heard the call and then Jordie moved away from where he was headed. If he moved the way he was facing then the pass was fine.
So one bad bomb in my eyes. Others a product of attacking on the edge. -
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@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
There's definitely a problem with our outsides being so flat that you can only actually hit them with a forward pass, that's been happening for a while.
I think earlier in the season they were using a more staggered backline. They seemed to quite often be using someone at first receiver to fire the ball back to DMac in a sort of second line - and then use the extra space to get the ball wide. There's a few examples here.
The Crusaders seemed to be trying something similar.
Don't think it worked for either of them and I wonder if that's what Razor and Leon disagreed about. I think we've gone back to a flatter backline since Leon departed.
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@Chris-B Bit of yes and no for me, McKenzie got crunched vs Japan when someone threw a hospital pass to him in the 2nd line - so it's certainly still being used somewhat, though I agree less than previous. McKenzie does play in the line a lot, which is something I really like as those are the 2 options for beating the rush - beat it by running your play in close, or get right around it - and it keeps the defence honest. Mounga to me has always played too much in the 2nd line, and Barrett when he plays in the line is so slow and telegraphed that he can be ignored unless it is broken play.
I wonder if some of the wingers being so flat is an artifact of the cross-kick obsession too. Either way it is really annoying - and the McKenzie 'errors' pointed out are great examples (I'm repeating what I said at the time here) in that he hits Will Jordan in the breadbasket with a pass, and it's forward. He passes one behind Reece and that's a blown try - but if he had hit Reece in the breadbasket that would have been forward too. Now those are both just running support lines to flat, not cross-kick initial formation problems, but it is a long term issue I think, and with all the extra TMO checks these days it will continue to cost us what would have been tries in the past. -
@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
I wonder if some of the wingers being so flat is an artifact of the cross-kick obsession too. Either way it is really annoying - and the McKenzie 'errors' pointed out are great examples (I'm repeating what I said at the time here) in that he hits Will Jordan in the breadbasket with a pass, and it's forward. He passes one behind Reece and that's a blown try - but if he had hit Reece in the breadbasket that would have been forward too. Now those are both just running support lines to flat, not cross-kick initial formation problems, but it is a long term issue I think, and with all the extra TMO checks these days it will continue to cost us what would have been tries in the past.
Yep - could be waiting for the cross kick.
In the case of Telea and Reece it might also be because they're not express pace. When I played wing occasionally, many years ago in the days of staggered backlines, I always had to stand flat with the centre - otherwise, I'd be 10 yards behind when he wanted to pass to me!
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I don't think Barrett or Mckenzie are suited to the wide game plan to beat the rush defense.
Razor must either try Perofeta or Plummer who I think are better suited to this game plan or he must change the game plan to suit his 10s.
Barrett is too slow shuffling it on, not running straight then continually resorting to low percentage kicks.
I don't think we've seen enough of JB on the crash ball this year. That was a feature of his game when he moved to 12 under Foster. But it doesn't seem to be apart of the plan to beat the rush defense.
Cane is too slow for a wide ranging game plan.
The game plan seems to nullify players strengths.
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@brodean said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
I don't think Barrett or Mckenzie are suited to the wide game plan to beat the rush defense.
Razor must either try Perofeta or Plummer who I think are better suited to this game plan or he must change the game plan to suit his 10s.
Barrett is too slow shuffling it on, not running straight then continually resorting to low percentage kicks.
I don't think we've seen enough of JB on the crash ball this year. That was a feature of his game when he moved to 12 under Foster. But it doesn't seem to be apart of the plan to beat the rush defense.
Cane is too slow for a wide ranging game plan.
The game plan seems to nullify players strengths.
They seem hell bent on having the 10 beat the rush. I don't see why they couldn't have the 10 pass it on early and allow the 12 and 13 to get tot work instead. The problem with making the 10 more the ball runner is that they take up all the space
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@Mr-Fish said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
Is Tom Taylor still playing🤪? I'd take a guy like him these days. Fark I'd take a poor man's Grant Fox. Just a fella who can kick for field position and can shift the pill. We have plenty of talent out wide.
Will be hilarious if BB plays a blinder though. Plenty of humble 🐦⬛ .
Tom Taylor's debut was possibly the best we've seen from a 10 in the last 20 years. Lima Sopoaga's might just pip it but until that point in time, Taylor's was just so incredibly composed and assured.
Born too soon, or too late
