All Blacks vs England I
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@Tordah said in All Blacks vs England I:
Last two penalties were so bad, should have been exactly the other way around (1st one, Christie should have won it - game over, second one ABs should have been penalised for off their feet).
They were only off feet after England had conceded the penalty. In fact they were only off feet because England had conceded the penalty.
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@Tordah said in All Blacks vs England I:
Last two penalties were so bad, should have been exactly the other way around (1st one, Christie should have won it - game over, second one ABs should have been penalised for off their feet).
Agree with that. It was right in front of the touchie. Shades of Cardiff 2007...
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Ian McGeechan's take on England - AB 1. Wish all media commentators could be this clear and incisive.
Steve Borthwick’s England substitutions did not work against the All Blacks
Fin Baxter aside, there will have been a tactical plan for the timing of the replacements but the collective momentum of the team suffered
Steve Borthwick’s approach with England continues to evolve and against New Zealand it found another level. To maintain a good performance, you rely on the tactical nuances introduced by your replacements. For England, that was a mixed bag.
I was not expecting some of the replacements at the times they happened. Alex Mitchell, for instance, was causing New Zealand problems with the speed at which he was playing. England lost a bit of pace after he went off. I know the game changed, mainly because both teams had to work harder at the breakdowns. Losing a second or more there meant the game reverted to more of a kicking battle, and if you are in one of those, you probably want Ben Spencer on the pitch.
In that last 20 minutes, England needed to keep building scores, but they could not manufacture the opportunities that they had created for the tries they scored earlier on, simply because both teams were kicking earlier from the slower breakdowns.
You could say that New Zealand were forced into a kicking game by England’s defence. That two-minute period just before half-time was an unbelievable defensive set that demonstrated the understanding England have built without the ball. It eventually led to a breakdown turnover and three points to tie up the game.
Spencer suits a game that becomes a kicking exchange, but if England were going to keep the pace up, you would have expected maybe 10 more minutes out of Mitchell.
I thought the same of Tom Curry replacing Chandler Cunningham-South. Curry clearly needs game-time because he is not where he was during the World Cup and he conceded a breakdown penalty early on. I can see why Borthwick will have wanted him there, but I would question the timing. Cunningham-South had been receiving treatment, which was the case against Japan a couple of weeks ago as well. Again, though, he was brought off earlier than I expected. He is such a good ball-carrier, which helps drive the collective momentum.
Speed is where New Zealand always seem to hold an advantage over teams. They click into shape so quickly from turnover ball and move it to space. And if they get a quick ruck, they will get cumulative quick rucks. Bringing on Curry, who can be one of the best at the contact area, seemed like an attempt from Borthwick to stop that trend.
There will have been a tactical plan for the timing of the replacements, apart from Fin Baxter taking over from the injured Joe Marler, and an overall approach to go with it. I cannot imagine that fatigue will have been too much of a factor, because they had not played in two weeks. It is more a case of assessing the collective momentum of the team and whether it is being lost.
Fin Smith’s arrival was a good call, in my opinion, as kicking strategy had tightened both teams up. There is a certain physicality about him, and Marcus Smith had missed two penalties, which reflects the pressure that playing in New Zealand puts you under. He did not hit either of them particularly well and Henry Slade could have taken responsibility from the tee.
Playing against the All Blacks in New Zealand is a huge challenge for anyone, let alone a Test debutant, and I thought Baxter did seriously well. With the All Blacks not having played for eight months, I think Borthwick will have seen it as a good opportunity to introduce those young faces to let them appreciate what the level is like.
There is no doubt that England’s scrum was under pressure, which intensified in the second half, but Baxter held things together well and was good away from the scrums, getting involved in the contact area. Until you play in a game like that, you cannot understand where you are and the experience will have given him a valuable reference point. As individuals and as a collective, England will have learned what it takes to get over the line in those contests.
Dan Cole coming on was a technical scrummaging decision, which showed how England were losing control of that area. For Saturday’s game at Eden Park, there must be serious improvements there.
Although Ollie Sleightholme did not get a touch of the ball, he will have felt the atmosphere of a Test in New Zealand and Borthwick deserves credit for that. He is obviously confident in his entire squad, which bodes well.
For both locks to go 80 minutes was quite something, and I thought Maro Itoje and George Martin were outstanding. Itoje picked up a couple of turnovers and Martin was immensely powerful, especially when counter-rucking and causing issues for the All Blacks.
England are still moving in the right direction
Overall, England’s defence built upon their display in Japan and went to another level. Felix Jones has been hammering home the habits he wants and England kept numbers on their feet – they committed to breakdowns only if the first contact was good – and maintained the integrity of the line. For New Zealand to score only 16 points is testament to that.Another example of where England are going came just five minutes into the second half when Immanuel Feyi-Waboso ran back a clearance from Damian McKenzie and linked with Slade to set up a broken-field situation. What followed from there was one of the best attacks I can remember this side putting together and covering more than 60 metres of the pitch.
Feyi-Waboso eventually scored 14 phases later, which was a reward for their conviction on the counter. But another thing that struck me was how two players other than Mitchell, George Furbank and Sam Underhill, stepped up at scrum-half to move the ball away from the breakdown at different times.
To me, when players are ready to play that role, it is always a sign that a team are in sync and able to capitalise on quick ball. They could not quite finish it off, but England are still moving in the right direction, they will become more and more difficult to play against and, for supporters, better and better to watch. A win in Auckland? Very possible.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs England I:
England should start Baby Face Nelson (ranga prop), Spencer and Finn Smith next week
Yes. No. No.
Baxter did very well for a debutant and steadied the scrum a bit which Marler was struggling to do. The other option is Bevan Road and his scrummaging has been found out time and again at test level. Baxter is a shoo-in for selection.
Spencer was sooo much slower than Mitchell and I can only think he was sent on to change the game into a more kick orientated affair but to me it was noticeable that NZ had more time to counter anything that England did once he was on. As good as he's been for Bath all season I just don't feel he has what it takes at this level. I'd prefer to see Randall as the back up.
Finn Smith is still finding his feet and has seemed a bit overawed playing test rugby. I think he has what it takes but it is not quite happening for him just yet. Marcus Smith did a lot of good stuff but those two missed sitters have blotted his copybook. I'd keep him as the starter and maybe have Slade as a back up place kicker if he effs up again.
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@booboo said in All Blacks vs England I:
@Tordah said in All Blacks vs England I:
Last two penalties were so bad, should have been exactly the other way around (1st one, Christie should have won it - game over, second one ABs should have been penalised for off their feet).
They were only off feet after England had conceded the penalty. In fact they were only off feet because England had conceded the penalty.
Nah, that was not even a 50/50, more like a 20/80 (against the ABs) for me. Scooter in his post game comments said we were very lucky with that last penalty.
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@Catogrande said in All Blacks vs England I:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs England I:
England should start Baby Face Nelson (ranga prop), Spencer and Finn Smith next week
Yes. No. No.
Baxter did very well for a debutant and steadied the scrum a bit which Marler was struggling to do. The other option is Bevan Road and his scrummaging has been found out time and again at test level. Baxter is a shoo-in for selection.
Spencer was sooo much slower than Mitchell and I can only think he was sent on to change the game into a more kick orientated affair but to me it was noticeable that NZ had more time to counter anything that England did once he was on. As good as he's been for Bath all season I just don't feel he has what it takes at this level. I'd prefer to see Randall as the back up.
Finn Smith is still finding his feet and has seemed a bit overawed playing test rugby. I think he has what it takes but it is not quite happening for him just yet. Marcus Smith did a lot of good stuff but those two missed sitters have blotted his copybook. I'd keep him as the starter and maybe have Slade as a back up place kicker if he effs up again.
I'd be tempted to start Finn Smith, who plays club with Mitchell, and save Marcus for when things open up later in match. I felt Earl was guilty of trying too much, although not sure who'd play 8 if he was saved for impact.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs England I:
@booboo said in All Blacks vs England I:
@Tordah said in All Blacks vs England I:
Last two penalties were so bad, should have been exactly the other way around (1st one, Christie should have won it - game over, second one ABs should have been penalised for off their feet).
They were only off feet after England had conceded the penalty. In fact they were only off feet because England had conceded the penalty.
Nah, that was not even a 50/50, more like a 20/80 (against the ABs) for me. Scooter in his post game comments said we were very lucky with that last penalty.
It might have looked wrong, because it all happened fast, but the sequence was that England conceded first.
Why are we struggling to accept a legit penalty in our favour?
Kiwi guilt?
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Obviously there is a lot of hyperbole and writing to an Ozzie audience, but the core is correct - earn the right to go wide. We still can't deal with rush/blitz defences cos were still trying to 2015 them. Ain't working.
I give more space for razor to implement his tactics, but I really hope there is change and we get more hard carrying munters on the field
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People have got short memories. I remember days in the not too distant past where we had a headless chicken midfield, no front row, sacrificial dinks and a decent second five on the wing.
Currently we are trending upward -
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@Daffy-Jaffy didn't feel like he gained a lot of ground when doing so, would be interesting to see that stat.
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Stats can be misleading, and I'm a Tele'a fan.
I would posit that Tele'a rarely beats a defender 1-on-1. In traffic he often beats 2-3 players in gaining under 10m of territory
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@pakman said in All Blacks vs England I:
@Catogrande said in All Blacks vs England I:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs England I:
England should start Baby Face Nelson (ranga prop), Spencer and Finn Smith next week
Yes. No. No.
Baxter did very well for a debutant and steadied the scrum a bit which Marler was struggling to do. The other option is Bevan Road and his scrummaging has been found out time and again at test level. Baxter is a shoo-in for selection.
Spencer was sooo much slower than Mitchell and I can only think he was sent on to change the game into a more kick orientated affair but to me it was noticeable that NZ had more time to counter anything that England did once he was on. As good as he's been for Bath all season I just don't feel he has what it takes at this level. I'd prefer to see Randall as the back up.
Finn Smith is still finding his feet and has seemed a bit overawed playing test rugby. I think he has what it takes but it is not quite happening for him just yet. Marcus Smith did a lot of good stuff but those two missed sitters have blotted his copybook. I'd keep him as the starter and maybe have Slade as a back up place kicker if he effs up again.
I'd be tempted to start Finn Smith, who plays club with Mitchell, and save Marcus for when things open up later in match. I felt Earl was guilty of trying too much, although not sure who'd play 8 if he was saved for impact.
I’m far less inclined to think that actually happens these days with how benches are used and how teams play.
Last Saturday I thought things actually got tighter in the latter parts of the match and the play was more narrow.
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@ACT-Crusader because Marcus wasn't on and NZ replaced their fullback with a carthorse. Duh.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs England I:
@pakman said in All Blacks vs England I:
@Catogrande said in All Blacks vs England I:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs England I:
England should start Baby Face Nelson (ranga prop), Spencer and Finn Smith next week
Yes. No. No.
Baxter did very well for a debutant and steadied the scrum a bit which Marler was struggling to do. The other option is Bevan Road and his scrummaging has been found out time and again at test level. Baxter is a shoo-in for selection.
Spencer was sooo much slower than Mitchell and I can only think he was sent on to change the game into a more kick orientated affair but to me it was noticeable that NZ had more time to counter anything that England did once he was on. As good as he's been for Bath all season I just don't feel he has what it takes at this level. I'd prefer to see Randall as the back up.
Finn Smith is still finding his feet and has seemed a bit overawed playing test rugby. I think he has what it takes but it is not quite happening for him just yet. Marcus Smith did a lot of good stuff but those two missed sitters have blotted his copybook. I'd keep him as the starter and maybe have Slade as a back up place kicker if he effs up again.
I'd be tempted to start Finn Smith, who plays club with Mitchell, and save Marcus for when things open up later in match. I felt Earl was guilty of trying too much, although not sure who'd play 8 if he was saved for impact.
I’m far less inclined to think that actually happens these days with how benches are used and how teams play.
Last Saturday I thought things actually got tighter in the latter parts of the match and the play was more narrow.
That’s the theory, but grant you it didn’t happen on Saturday.
