All Blacks 2024
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
Cullen was diminished. But he was still one of the top couple of 15s in SR that year. It wasn't just the dropping. He went out of his way to try and humiliate him. Need I remind you how he sat in front of a press conference and blagged on about how CC didn't hold the ball right
I might have missed all the little details……and yes he might have been a dick about it…..
But would people have been so fair if Cullen had stayed on and been as maligned as BB has been ?
The point I’m making is that Mitchell did what everyone is whinging that Razor hasn’t done.
You are also missing the point that BB as a sub? I don't think too many would argue. Cullen was still second best at least and he didn't even make the squad
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Forwards were generally pretty bloody good this season. Backs were middling and awful against Italy. Forwards A- backs C
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
Cullen was diminished. But he was still one of the top couple of 15s in SR that year. It wasn't just the dropping. He went out of his way to try and humiliate him. Need I remind you how he sat in front of a press conference and blagged on about how CC didn't hold the ball right
I might have missed all the little details……and yes he might have been a dick about it…..
But would people have been so fair if Cullen had stayed on and been as maligned as BB has been ?
The point I’m making is that Mitchell did what everyone is whinging that Razor hasn’t done.
You are also missing the point that BB as a sub? I don't think too many would argue. Cullen was still second best at least and he didn't even make the squad
….and the next AB first fives are Stephen Perofeta and Harry Plummer.
All I’m trying to say is the perhaps the Cullen dropping wasn’t the massive bombshell people think.
Do I need to mention again he was an absolute legend and one of my favourite players ever ?
Anton Oliver, Andrew Mehrtens and Taine Randell got dropped too, two of them fought their way back in…..
In hindsight I guess it is Mitch’s slightly odd public persona that didn’t do him too many favours whereas Razor can do no wrong with his cool surfing demeanour.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2024:
@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
So he obviously wants Richie Mounga, Frizzell, LF etc before they officially return.
Bollocks. Razor obviously got wind that many on the Fern are not happy with him, so he is paving the way to select Akira, Sotutu and Plummer.
Typical, not selecting ENS who is made for test rugby.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2024:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
I can’t believe how well Mitchell did for all the scorn he got as a coach
I didn't mind him. Again, at least he made big decisions (right or wrong). Some benefitted the team going forward too. We played some great rugby under him in 2003.
People focused on the negative side of his reign, but there were a lot of positives too.
Well yeah, he dropped one of my favourite ever players too and in hindsight it was the right decision.
Demonised for doing what we all want Razor to do. It’s a tough gig being an AB coach
Your hindsight needs to go into the shop for repairs.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2024:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
I can’t believe how well Mitchell did for all the scorn he got as a coach
I didn't mind him. Again, at least he made big decisions (right or wrong). Some benefitted the team going forward too. We played some great rugby under him in 2003.
People focused on the negative side of his reign, but there were a lot of positives too.
Well yeah, he dropped one of my favourite ever players too and in hindsight it was the right decision.
Demonised for doing what we all want Razor to do. It’s a tough gig being an AB coach
Your hindsight needs to go into the shop for repairs.
My hindsight also mentioned Mitchells odd public persona so hopefully it’s not completely rooted
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@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Nepia said in All Blacks 2024:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2024:
@MN5 said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
I can’t believe how well Mitchell did for all the scorn he got as a coach
I didn't mind him. Again, at least he made big decisions (right or wrong). Some benefitted the team going forward too. We played some great rugby under him in 2003.
People focused on the negative side of his reign, but there were a lot of positives too.
Well yeah, he dropped one of my favourite ever players too and in hindsight it was the right decision.
Demonised for doing what we all want Razor to do. It’s a tough gig being an AB coach
Your hindsight needs to go into the shop for repairs.
My hindsight also mentioned Mitchells odd public persona so hopefully it’s not completely rooted
Your present sight is also broken too if you only noticed that after the fact.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Given the loss of Whitelock, Retallick, Smith and Mo'unga I thought the year was ok
Ironically, the two positions where we didn't drop off were lock and 9 - and I'd argue we're in a better position at 9 overall without Christie.
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@Mattasaurus said in All Blacks 2024:
knee jerk reaction for the 2025 season - fowards generally not too bad this year..... backs.... hard to pencil anyone in outside of 9
- Ethan de Groot / Williams ----- pen them in.
- Codie Taylor / Aumua ------ pen them in
- Tyrel Lomax / Fletcher Newell --------------- pen them in
- Scott Barrett --- Shadow of the player he was last two years - captaincy not suiting him?
- Patrick Tuipulotu - probably his best season in black - Pen him in
(LOCKING pleasingly we have good competition in the locking department so pick on form) - Wallace Sititi - PEN HIM IN probably 8 --- ridiculous we needed an injury to see him selected
- Sam Cane - warrior -- thanks for the service -- position available ffs please pick on form. (Lakai possibly leading contender)
- Ardie Savea - passed his use by date - needs to earn selection
- Cam Roigard -- I'd pen him in but Ratima and Hotham are not bad so would select on form.
- Beauden Barrett at least 3 years passed his used by date
10 Damian McKenzie -- a better option than BB but like BBs dinky kicks.. Dmac can go sideways headless chicken a bit too much - POSITION OPEN - we need to be brave and select on form - Caleb Clarke - his best season and only outside back Id keep on form
- Anton Lienert-Brown . Jordie / good D zero creativity - position open
- Rieko Ioane -- Good D zero creativity - position open
- Mark Tele’a / Reece -- see yas we need youth and speed
- Will Jordan -- try scoring machine but I am not convinced -- select position on form and ffs choose a specialist 15 please
Unfortunately we have some how got to the point that players retain the jersey far too easily - selections should be ruthlessly earned.
rant over -- see you all in 2025
Tosi over Newell every day of the week.
Tu'ungafasi has actually been the best prop on th eoy tour. Williams had some good runs but his workrate is the lowest of all the props and he was a mixed bag at the scrum.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Mattasaurus said in All Blacks 2024:
knee jerk reaction for the 2025 season - fowards generally not too bad this year..... backs.... hard to pencil anyone in outside of 9
- Ethan de Groot / Williams ----- pen them in.
- Codie Taylor / Aumua ------ pen them in
- Tyrel Lomax / Fletcher Newell --------------- pen them in
- Scott Barrett --- Shadow of the player he was last two years - captaincy not suiting him?
- Patrick Tuipulotu - probably his best season in black - Pen him in
(LOCKING pleasingly we have good competition in the locking department so pick on form) - Wallace Sititi - PEN HIM IN probably 8 --- ridiculous we needed an injury to see him selected
- Sam Cane - warrior -- thanks for the service -- position available ffs please pick on form. (Lakai possibly leading contender)
- Ardie Savea - passed his use by date - needs to earn selection
- Cam Roigard -- I'd pen him in but Ratima and Hotham are not bad so would select on form.
- Beauden Barrett at least 3 years passed his used by date
10 Damian McKenzie -- a better option than BB but like BBs dinky kicks.. Dmac can go sideways headless chicken a bit too much - POSITION OPEN - we need to be brave and select on form - Caleb Clarke - his best season and only outside back Id keep on form
- Anton Lienert-Brown . Jordie / good D zero creativity - position open
- Rieko Ioane -- Good D zero creativity - position open
- Mark Tele’a / Reece -- see yas we need youth and speed
- Will Jordan -- try scoring machine but I am not convinced -- select position on form and ffs choose a specialist 15 please
Unfortunately we have some how got to the point that players retain the jersey far too easily - selections should be ruthlessly earned.
rant over -- see you all in 2025
Tosi over Newell every day of the week.
Tu'ungafasi has actually been the best prop on th eoy tour. Williams had some good runs but his workrate is the lowest of all the props and he was a mixed bag at the scrum.
I've been critical of Ofa in the past, but yep, he's had a good tour. His scrummaging has been very good on this tour too.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
I think what we’ve seen is what would happen if any of us had the chance to select and coach the ABs. We’ve got this idea in our head of a style of play and what we think will work, and then very quickly - how does the Mike Tyson quote go? - everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. Under Razor the ABs are trying to play a skills-based game to out manoeuvre their opposition. The interesting thing is, we’ve actually discovered some dimensions to our power game (Sititi, Aumua, Paddy to an extent… Ardie for about 3 mins every game). So, what he needs to do, is quickly sort out how to diversify the approach so we don’t just rely on out-highlights reeling the opposition. Don’t forget, we’ve been there or there abouts with the best teams in the world this year. Is it good enough yet? No. Is there the potential to grow consistently into the best team in the world? In the basis of some of the young players coming through, I would say yes. But Razor’s got some hard/brave calls to make in 2025.
I'm not sure about potential. France and South Africa have some serious depth and high calibre players.
They're tough, smart and they use their bench well. I think their playmakers/game managers are better than ours.
They're winning games against us with young players coming through.
We have some real potential particularly in our forwards, but what we lack - and which we have lacked since 2016 - but which RSA and France have, is brains both on and off the field. I have said on another thread that, if Razor has half a brain, he will try to turn this team into an adapted 10-man rugby team that bludgeons their opposition, plays for set pieces, and attacks only off counterattacking chaos ball - that would be making the most of our actual rather than imagined talents. This bullshit about "our DNA" really grinds my gears because the actual DNA of the best players we have available would be much better suited to an entirely different game plan.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@African-Monkey said in All Blacks 2024:
Don't get the hate for Wilson myself, think he's not bad.
Screams company man who'll say what he's told to. Legend as a player, but seriously limited as a commentator or analyst. Struck me as very sycophantic.
Not great on The Breakdown, but much better on commentary where he has to speak off the cuff and call it as he sees it. Made some really good comments about how we are using Rieko - i.e. completing wasting his talents. And in fairness to Goldie, he was relatively critical on The Breakdown today.
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@junior said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Darth-Sader said in All Blacks 2024:
I think what we’ve seen is what would happen if any of us had the chance to select and coach the ABs. We’ve got this idea in our head of a style of play and what we think will work, and then very quickly - how does the Mike Tyson quote go? - everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. Under Razor the ABs are trying to play a skills-based game to out manoeuvre their opposition. The interesting thing is, we’ve actually discovered some dimensions to our power game (Sititi, Aumua, Paddy to an extent… Ardie for about 3 mins every game). So, what he needs to do, is quickly sort out how to diversify the approach so we don’t just rely on out-highlights reeling the opposition. Don’t forget, we’ve been there or there abouts with the best teams in the world this year. Is it good enough yet? No. Is there the potential to grow consistently into the best team in the world? In the basis of some of the young players coming through, I would say yes. But Razor’s got some hard/brave calls to make in 2025.
I'm not sure about potential. France and South Africa have some serious depth and high calibre players.
They're tough, smart and they use their bench well. I think their playmakers/game managers are better than ours.
They're winning games against us with young players coming through.
We have some real potential particularly in our forwards, but what we lack - and which we have lacked since 2016 - but which RSA and France have, is brains both on and off the field. I have said on another thread that, if Razor has half a brain, he will try to turn this team into an adapted 10-man rugby team that bludgeons their opposition, plays for set pieces, and attacks only off counterattacking chaos ball - that would be making the most of our actual rather than imagined talents. This bullshit about "our DNA" really grinds my gears because the actual DNA of the best players we have available would be much better suited to an entirely different game plan.
The AB DNA chestnut is bullshit anyway. In the 70s we played 10 man rugby. In the 80s we had some great backs, but Grant Fox (predominantly kicking 10 😱) ran the cutter and our forwards were strong and tough. Sure, between 2012 to 2015 we were the masters of total rugby, but times change and so must we. That's the DNA of the ABs, toughness, smarts, ruthlessness, winning. Not the high risk, dated gameplan we are seeing right now
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I think I would summarize the season as A for the forwards and F for the backs. We have created genuine depth up front and are capable of matching or exceeding all the top sides in the world. Probably still need a genuine line out option at 6. The backs on the other hand are a shambles : no player depth created, no style of play, no gameplan, no chemistry. The only thing we have is experience and Razor seems to value that above everything. Such a contrast to the other top nations , we have seen their backs improve in front of our eyes and we have seen fantastic new talent being blooded.
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A- for the forwards from me. Scott Barrett and Ardie Savea were a bit disappointing. Hoskins Sotutu wasn't selected. Sami T and Ethan Blackadder were injured, but the rest of the forwards did really well. Lots of players had their best season to date.
Defence: B. Disappointing against Argentina in Wellington but solid enough in every other game
Back line attack: D. Often rudderless and unthreatening. The weakest the AB backline has been in 30 years. A major rethink is needed.
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2024:
@DMX Yes, the forwards are the best they've been since 2015, but the backs the worst they've been for a long time.
Maybe the forwards are the result of continuity in coaching? That forwards like Vaa'i and Williams have kicked on and Sititi has slotted in so well looks to be the result of a coach who's been thru some up and downs but is now comfortable in his role.
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks 2024:
Experience is not fungible/equal.
Take your point, but experience is bloody important. I'm sure Sititi, Roigard, Ratima, Lakai etc, learnt a lot from Cane and TJP - as we saw when Robertson's selections were forced by injury. Credit where credit's due that they were able to shine.
That said, Robertson sticking with the likes of Havili, BB & ALB while hardly playing Proctor, Plummer et al is unfathomable bollocks.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
as we saw when Robertson's selections were forced by injury
We don't really know that. Perhaps they would've learned more playing alongside better players that help them to excel?
