All Blacks 2024
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@Victor-Meldrew I disagree with the premise, I think we've been all over the place but I don't think we've got worse from test to test.
30 minutes into the most recent test we were looking totally dominant and everyone was going 'ah yeah we're destroying them (but it's just the wallabies)'. The first half in SA was the best rugby I've seen from us this year. Argentina loss 2nd half was the worst. So I don't think there is any sort of consistent deterioration in performance - though there are certainly problems that are recurring and have not yet been solved.On field leadership I do think is a problem - we've lost Smith, Retallick and Whitelock - which really is a big deal. I don't think Scott Barrett is a great captain (or playing very well), I don't think TJ or BB are calm enough under pressure to be good leaders - and of course TJ and Cane are both in their last year.
Now of course the coach does choose the captain and the leadership group, but it's inarguably a lesser pool of leadership players that he has to draw from, and it's the young guys who have largely been leading the way with performance (Taylor the exception).Our selection and use of the bench has been shit - that's on the coach - and is a sizeable factor in the last 20 performance. Inexperience form the young guys, a lack of composure and leadership form the old guys, and trying to implement a new game plan under pressure (SA not Oz) and fatigue and subs means that last period of the game is the toughest to get right. To be fair, they are trying things - not the changes I would advocate, but I don't think it is being ignored.
Our kick chase and (lack of) protection for our kick receivers is the thing that grates on me as not being addressed.
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Anecdotally down the pub, at work etc - patience is wearing pretty thin with Robertson. I think this is directly related to how he was promoted as "the answer to all our problems"
Granted this is an Auckland vox pop but I haven't heard anyone complaining about not selecting Akira or Sotutu, more the dumb rugby that is being played .
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
This shifting goalposts argument was expected.
For the last four years, it was a shitty coach.
Now it is shitty players.
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
What next appears to be throwing the ball around furiously and hoping someone finds a gap.
I put that in the BBBB bucket.
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I would agree that its been a real mixed bag and agree with your points generally.
It's significant that Argentina put a record amount of points on us and we scored no tries in the second SA test. Comprehensive failure in defense and attack in different games.
So these two low points in both attack and in defense were never achieved by Foster.
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@gt12 maybe its the realization the players arent upto it, whereas last year given Fozzies track record, it had to be him?
That said, I'm not convinced of either, I think Fozzie was better than he got credit for when you reflect on his time at the helm, I think Razor still has alot to learn, but he seems to be making some odd decisions, we always knew he was a bit more innovative and likely to (despite current evidence) take a few punts, but so far, like alot of Fozzies tenure, there appears no clear vision of the bigger picture.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
I think Fozzie was better than he got credit for when you reflect on his time at the helm,
Wayne Smith really rated him. It stings, but it's true
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I'm interested in seeing two things before I throw my toys out of the cot:
- Patience and accuracy. In Bled 1 we tore the Aussies apart often in the first half where arguable decision making and poor execution prevented it from becoming a bloodbath. Admittedly this was against the Wobblies, but we have looked good on occasion against all opposition so hopefully there's a plan manifesting itself sporadically.
- Closing out games as the dominant team. We need to address the final quarter.
It's against the ninth ranked team, we're at home (even if it's Wellington) so there
shouldn't bearen't any excuses. -
@antipodean 10th ranked now.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm interested in seeing two things before I throw my toys out of the cot:
- Patience and accuracy. In Bled 1 we tore the Aussies apart often in the first half where arguable decision making and poor execution prevented it from becoming a bloodbath. Admittedly this was against the Wobblies, but we have looked good on occasion against all opposition so hopefully there's a plan manifesting itself sporadically.
- Closing out games as the dominant team. We need to address the final quarter.
It's against the ninth ranked team, we're at home (even if it's Wellington) so there
shouldn't bearen't any excuses.We've been here before. Trying too hard, stuffing up chances on the last pass. We need to exhibit some control and some patience. Do the basics well
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The other option is to get a sacrificial lamb from one of the multitude of assistants to do a video critiquing the referees, assistants and TMOs we've had. Use that to whip up the lunatics on social media to threaten those referees, assistants and TMOs and their families. Having subjected them to vile abuse they'll subconsciously (?) favour us in an effort to not have to go through that experience again and we'll go back to dominating.
Pity Leon's already left.
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I have a question that one of the Hurricanes posters @canefan @Canes4life etc. might be able to shed some light on.
Who was responsible for coaching the attack off set-piece or first phases at the Hurricanes - was it only Blyeendaal or did Holland have some contribution as well? l know Blyeendaal had the title of attack/backs coach while Holland was the head coach, the reason I ask is because I've been looking through Hurricanes clips from 2021-2023 compared to 2016-2020 and there seems to be a noticeable difference in their strike moves around the period Blyeendaal joined the Canes, a bit more off the ball movement, deception and switch plays., I've heard that Blyeendaal is very highly rated and Leinster narrowed him down as the best candidate in their worldwide search for a new attack coach. So what input did Holland have into their attack? Did he oversee the unstructured attack while he was the head coach?
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
That’s not true.
When he first started out in super rugby, the crusaders weren’t stacked, they were full of players yet to make their mark. Mounga being a prime example and they had lost players such as McCaw,Carter.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
That’s not true.
When he first started out in super rugby, the crusaders weren’t stacked, they were full of players yet to make their mark. Mounga being a prime example and they had lost players such as McCaw,Carter.
He took over after the barren Todd Blackadder era didn't he?
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
That’s not true.
When he first started out in super rugby, the crusaders weren’t stacked, they were full of players yet to make their mark. Mounga being a prime example and they had lost players such as McCaw,Carter.
He took over after the barren Todd Blackadder era didn't he?
Yes he did. They still had strong forwards but their backs were a mixed bag.
Expectations were low at the crusaders
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I don't think we should revise history. Razor had a storied Super coaching career. Hopefully he can transfer that into success for the ABs. Preferably sooner rather than later!
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
The other option is to get a sacrificial lamb from one of the multitude of assistants to do a video critiquing the referees, assistants and TMOs we've had. Use that to whip up the lunatics on social media to threaten those referees, assistants and TMOs and their families. Having subjected them to vile abuse they'll subconsciously (?) favour us in an effort to not have to go through that experience again and we'll go back to dominating.
Pity Leon's already left.
Seems no one is a fan of the South African approach. So we're left with better selection, coaching, leadership and execution.
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@Landers92 highlighting that Chay not selected as a 12.
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To add some balance there has been some great rugby. First half of a lot of test matches have been superb, especially SA1 where we could have been out of sight.
So fair dues there..
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@Kirwan said in All Blacks 2024:
Going to be a long few years with these poor selections.
Curate's egg. Some selections have good - Ratima, Vaai, Sititi - while others have been meh. Not convinced by Blackadder and Reece for example.
Again - those in top form in super rugby Vs those with fuck all form in super rugby. I wasn't completely focussed on the second half in the weekend - what have I missed that people think Reece is so bad?
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
That’s not true.
When he first started out in super rugby, the crusaders weren’t stacked, they were full of players yet to make their mark. Mounga being a prime example and they had lost players such as McCaw,Carter.
Not this fucking argument again. Those with international experience (test level) at that time bolded. Doesn't include MABs.
They could run out an AB forward pack, with their AB replacements on the bench in multiple positions, an AB midfield and FB, and at least 10 from the U20s (Strange, Drummy, Hall, Bateman, McKenzie, Mo'unga, Goodhue, Havili, Wainui, Bridge). It's a testament to their development that they got the right pieces at the right time.
Forwards: Michael Alaalatoa, Wyatt Crockett, Oliver Jager, Joe Moody, Tim Perry, Owen Franks, Ben Funnell, Andrew Makalio, Codie Taylor, Scott Barrett, Luke Romano, Quinten Strange, Sam Whitelock, Heiden Bedwell-Curtis, Jed Brown, Mitchell Dunshea, Kieran Read, Pete Samu, Jordan Taufua, Matt Todd.
Backs: Mitchell Drummond, Leon Fukofuka, Bryn Hall, Tim Bateman, Marty McKenzie, Richie Mo'unga, Ryan Crotty, Jack Goodhue, David Havili, Seta Tamanivalu, Sean Wainui, George Bridge, Israel Dagg, Sione Fifita, Mitchell Hunt, Digby Ioane, Jone Macilai, Manasa Mataele.
All of this is not to say that Razor didn't do well, but he did not have a team of fucking no names. He had the AB captain and most of the starting forward pack plus much of the emerging back talent stolen from around the country.
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Also, Todd Blackadder is remembered for grossly underachieving given the players and resources at his disposal.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
Also, Todd Blackadder is remembered for grossly underachieving given the players and resources at his disposal.
And he was robbed in 2014 and would have likely won it had they been able to play at home in the earthquake year.
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@pakman said in All Blacks 2024:
@Landers92 highlighting that Chay not selected as a 12.
Yes, we are so short of outside backs now Jordie is broken...
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
30 minutes into the most recent test we were looking totally dominant and everyone was going 'ah yeah we're destroying them (but it's just the wallabies)'. The first half in SA was the best rugby I've seen from us this year. Argentina loss 2nd half was the worst. So I don't think there is any sort of consistent deterioration in performance - though there are certainly problems that are recurring and have not yet been solved.
You could say exactly the same thing about the ABs two years ago so that's a bit revisionist. Dominant in the first half, crap in the second.- Twickenham 2022. The second 40 minutes of Argentina and last Saturday are some of the worst AB performances you'll see and it's happening more often.
If the current coaching setup was chosen so carefully and is so much better, why haven't we progressed? (And I'm not buying the loss of players argument. Vaai and Ratima have stepped into big shoes really well)
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
This shifting goalposts argument was expected.
For the last four years, it was a shitty coach.
Now it is shitty players.
Which is probably closer to the truth.
Should be looking at player development at senior levels rather than simply blaming/dumping all the problems at the head coaching door.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
@Canerbry said in All Blacks vs Wallabies I:
@junior Precisely. Shittest All Blacks cattle in living memory this year.
This is probably an important point, though not the point you are trying to make, when it comes to Razor. This is the first time he's coached a team that isn't absolutely fucking stacked compared to opposition teams in a long time, if ever. In fact he actually has to get this team beating other teams that, on paper, are stronger than his team. That's all new to him.
Not sure that was true for this game.
https://www.forum.thesilverfern.com/topic/6036/sf-crusaders-good-v-blues-evil/28?page=2
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So if we comfortably beat the wallabies this week. Will it be because Wayne Smith has come to the rescue.
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@chchfanatic said in All Blacks 2024:
So if we comfortably beat the wallabies this week. Will it be because Wayne Smith has come to the rescue.
Some will point to that. Poor Razor is in a no win situation. Win and it's the Professor. Lose and he hasn't solved our issues
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@chchfanatic said in All Blacks 2024:
So if we comfortably beat the wallabies this week. Will it be because Wayne Smith has come to the rescue.
Some will point to that. Poor Razor is in a no win situation. Win and it's the Professor. Lose and he hasn't solved our issues
Well, that’s certainly never happened to an AB coach before.
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@chchfanatic said in All Blacks 2024:
So if we comfortably beat the wallabies this week. Will it be because Wayne Smith has come to the rescue.
He is the high performance coach and mentor for the men’s and women’s coaches.
I highly doubt this would be his first involvement with those teams since his role started.
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@chchfanatic said in All Blacks 2024:
So if we comfortably beat the wallabies this week. Will it be because Wayne Smith has come to the rescue.
Beating Australia comfortably is what we should be doing regardless of who is there. They're hopeless.
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@canefan you sound like a very knowledgeable and level headed person.
How do you actually think they’re going?
Bar the Argentina result. Which was terrible. Argentina have since shown they’re actually decent.
Losing by 4 & 6 points in SA was better than I thought they’d do.
I think everyone looked at the score in Australia’s loss to Argentina and thought we’d destroy them in Sydney. I didn’t hear until after , that most of the Aussies had food poisoning. -
@chchfanatic said in All Blacks 2024:
So if we comfortably beat the wallabies this week. Will it be because Wayne Smith has come to the rescue.
If he can help a struggling coach, it really doesn't matter for me. As I said on another thread, good on Robertson for asking for help.
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@DaGrubster I agree. He’s definitely been there already this year. Media only report what they want remember.
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@African-Monkey but they’ve definitely improved under Joe.
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@Victor-Meldrew I don’t think Razor has asked for help. I’d say Smith was always going to be there. Like he has already this season.
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@chchfanatic said in All Blacks 2024:
@African-Monkey but they’ve definitely improved under Joe.
I think the concern would lie more in the 53-0 deficit in the last 20 minutes of games in The Rugby Championship rather than specifically the game last Saturday.
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@KiwiMurph yeah it’s a worry.
To me it seems like they stop trying to score tries thru strikes etc. They were breaking Aussie at will in the first half. The second it was like they were trying to protect their lead. Some bad discipline with yellow cards. I personally didn’t think Sevu knocked it on. -
@chchfanatic said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan you sound like a very knowledgeable and level headed person.
How do you actually think they’re going?
Bar the Argentina result. Which was terrible. Argentina have since shown they’re actually decent.
Losing by 4 & 6 points in SA was better than I thought they’d do.
I think everyone looked at the score in Australia’s loss to Argentina and thought we’d destroy them in Sydney. I didn’t hear until after , that most of the Aussies had food poisoning.It's been a tough introduction for the new coaching group. On the plus side they appear to have unearthed some nice talent in Sititi, Ratima, Darry. Vaaii is coming along nicely and Clarke is in sparkling form. We competed well in SA , especially in game 1. On the negative side, the old heads are letting the team down. BB, Ardie, TJP, ALB among others are not playing consistently well, and when they are playing poorly they are hurting the team. Our bench isn't helping at all, it's either a personnel issue, strategy or a failure to manage the subs well, or a combination of all.
Barrett is still trying to settle into the captaincy and I'm not sure it's affecting his play. The panel don't seem to have settled on the back row, the back 3, and we seem to be trying too hard and lacking control when it comes to dictating the game to the opposition.Lots of work to do, glimpses of something that could be very good. I'm hoping to see more clarity in selection moving forward to EOYT
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