All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
Richie Mo'unga is probably the worst case of the late Hansen and Foster era lost generation of All Blacks - players chronically mismanaged and mucked around with to the point they have not been able to consistently perform to their potential on the international stage.
It's not often you see a player so actively disadvantaged & undermined by tactics, selection and team management but it feels like that is what we have had with Mo'unga's handling over the last five years.
Mo'unga's career started with Hansen actively talking his performances down and clearly reluctant to move away from his preferred Barrett. If this is the end of Mo'unga in Black, hopefully he gets 12 months with the trust and freedom to run things himself unimpeded. If he does, I think we will realize what the AB management has wasted for the last five years and what we will miss in future.
Mo'unga has still shone but so much of his career he has been undermined by selection, tactics and dual playmakers. As Mo'unga has sadly found out time and time again, It’s pretty tough to drive a car when an overbearing passenger keeps clutching at the steering wheel from the back.
Hopefully he can have a great next twelve months in black and who knows, we may see him back on his return under a different coaching regime.
It feels strange to say this about a 100-test AB, but I wonder if BB has been a net negative for the team since 2016 when he took over running the cutter. That is, to fit his freakish skills into the team, and indeed to give him as many opportunities as possible to exploit them during that period, we may have sidelined players better suited to the overall on field management of the team, such Cruden and then Mounga.
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@junior said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm convinced that had Scott Robertson been the All Blacks coach, he'd gotten more out of RM (and other players). He'd developed a game plan that uses players' strengths and would have added to those strengths. It's unfortunate that it's now very unlikely that we'll ever get to see RM play in a black jersey under Robertson.
I think it's a tremendous loss to New Zealand rugby, but I don't agree that razor would've got him to be a much better Test player. The space and mismatch that Richie enjoys at SR doesn't exist at the higher level.
Richie Mo'unga is probably the worst case of the late Hansen and Foster era lost generation of All Blacks - players chronically mismanaged and mucked around with to the point they have not been able to consistently perform to their potential on the international stage.
It's not often you see a player so actively disadvantaged & undermined by tactics, selection and team management but it feels like that is what we have had with Mo'unga's handling over the last five years.
Mo'unga's career started with Hansen actively talking his performances down and clearly reluctant to move away from his preferred Barrett. If this is the end of Mo'unga in Black, hopefully he gets 12 months with the trust and freedom to run things himself unimpeded. If he does, I think we will realize what the AB management has wasted for the last five years and what we will miss in future.
Mo'unga has still shone but so much of his career he has been undermined by selection, tactics and dual playmakers. As Mo'unga has sadly found out time and time again, It’s pretty tough to drive a car when an overbearing passenger keeps clutching at the steering wheel from the back.
Hopefully he can have a great next twelve months in black and who knows, we may see him back on his return under a different coaching regime.
It feels strange to say this about a 100-test AB, but I wonder if BB has been a net negative for the team since 2016 when he took over running the cutter. That is, to fit his freakish skills into the team, and indeed to give him as many opportunities as possible to exploit them during that period, we may have sidelined players better suited to the overall on field management of the team, such Cruden and then Mounga.
Very interesting but hard to tell even in retrospect.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
It feels strange to say this about a 100-test AB, but I wonder if BB has been a net negative for the team since 2016 when he took over running the cutter. That is, to fit his freakish skills into the team, and indeed to give him as many opportunities as possible to exploit them during that period, we may have sidelined players better suited to the overall on field management of the team, such Cruden and then Mounga.
Very interesting but hard to tell even in retrospect.
I said it from the start, so for me it isn't in retrospect. I have never rated Beauden Barrett as 1st-5, and always thought he was world class as fullback.
Lots of his coaches seemed to agree to, keeping him at fullback even as he pleaded to be moved to #10. When he has been allowed to play #10, the results for his sides have not been spectacular, for a guy twice world player of the year. Compare that to the way Aaron Cruden, never world player of the year, could absolutely ignite a backline.
I remember watching a Chiefs vs Hurricanes game in the pouring rain, and my only concern was that BB would carve up, as I was sure our forwards would otherwise win. The Chiefs kept him in check until he fell back in one move, got the ball in open space from a kick and proceeded to open up the Chiefs. Since then I have seen the same thing many times -- BB does nothing, until he falls back and has space, and then everyone says how wonderful he is. Which is true, but only when he isn't playing first receiver.
Our back play is just no good when BB starts at 10. It has improved out of sight this year without him. That's not to say RM is the answer, just that the other backs have started to look better once he plays.
Regarding the original post, who to play AB #10, I would go with someone who can kick, pass and tackle that you can build a game plan around. Ignore the desire to have a running #10 if that brings the core skills down. I wonder if a modern day Grant Fox would even get a look in with modern NZ teams, who would dismiss him because he couldn't run.
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Seems to be a lot of over thinking on the impact of coaches.
To me Super rugby is quite different to NH rugby and test rugby and builds the instincts our AB's play with. A player in a strong super team can get away with inaccuracies and weaknesses when he adds flair and scoring opportunities to get the bonus points. The deeper analysis and game plan at test level doesn't allow the same balance. Seems like a challenge to transition for 10s.
Not too many 10s lauded as match controlling generals at test level currently. Maybe only Sexton and Ntamack.
Neither Mounga or Barrett have had to consistently assume match control with their positional kicking at super level. I think it is as simple as that in assessing our high expectations of them. Not so easy for the AB's without regular scrumming for penalties to kick into the corner and maul for a try.
It will be interesting to see where NZ heads at 10 beyond RWC regardless of the coach. Will it be a Bryn Gatland type to play a Sexton type game or will it be a Perofeta or McKenzie type who poses more threats at super level? Or will one of the young 10s get moulded along Sexton or Carter lines at Super level to satisfy AB needs?
Sorry to see Frizzell going too. Like many others including Mounga I think he copes too much negative press. We are well served by the best we have. It is just that the rest of the world has caught up. -
It seems the less Perofeta plays at 10, the better he is considered to be at 10.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
It seems the less Perofeta plays at 10, the better he is considered to be at 10.
Absence makes the heart grow fonder, or something
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@Machpants DMac arguably emerged from his time with development squad as our form No.10. How high is Fergus Burke in the pecking order, he is sure to feature a lot more for the Saders in 23, as RM is likely to be rested for a good portion of the Super season.
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@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
It feels strange to say this about a 100-test AB, but I wonder if BB has been a net negative for the team since 2016 when he took over running the cutter. That is, to fit his freakish skills into the team, and indeed to give him as many opportunities as possible to exploit them during that period, we may have sidelined players better suited to the overall on field management of the team, such Cruden and then Mounga.
Very interesting but hard to tell even in retrospect.
I said it from the start, so for me it isn't in retrospect. I have never rated Beauden Barrett as 1st-5, and always thought he was world class as fullback.
Lots of his coaches seemed to agree to, keeping him at fullback even as he pleaded to be moved to #10. When he has been allowed to play #10, the results for his sides have not been spectacular, for a guy twice world player of the year. Compare that to the way Aaron Cruden, never world player of the year, could absolutely ignite a backline.
I remember watching a Chiefs vs Hurricanes game in the pouring rain, and my only concern was that BB would carve up, as I was sure our forwards would otherwise win. The Chiefs kept him in check until he fell back in one move, got the ball in open space from a kick and proceeded to open up the Chiefs. Since then I have seen the same thing many times -- BB does nothing, until he falls back and has space, and then everyone says how wonderful he is. Which is true, but only when he isn't playing first receiver.
Our back play is just no good when BB starts at 10. It has improved out of sight this year without him. That's not to say RM is the answer, just that the other backs have started to look better once he plays.
Regarding the original post, who to play AB #10, I would go with someone who can kick, pass and tackle that you can build a game plan around. Ignore the desire to have a running #10 if that brings the core skills down. I wonder if a modern day Grant Fox would even get a look in with modern NZ teams, who would dismiss him because he couldn't run.
I meant it is hard to judge with proof - not saying you changed your mind or only just started mentioning this...overall I agree with what you say..
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@ARHS said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
Seems to be a lot of over thinking on the impact of coaches.
To me Super rugby is quite different to NH rugby and test rugby and builds the instincts our AB's play with. A player in a strong super team can get away with inaccuracies and weaknesses when he adds flair and scoring opportunities to get the bonus points. The deeper analysis and game plan at test level doesn't allow the same balance. Seems like a challenge to transition for 10s.
Not too many 10s lauded as match controlling generals at test level currently. Maybe only Sexton and Ntamack.
Neither Mounga or Barrett have had to consistently assume match control with their positional kicking at super level. I think it is as simple as that in assessing our high expectations of them. Not so easy for the AB's without regular scrumming for penalties to kick into the corner and maul for a try.
It will be interesting to see where NZ heads at 10 beyond RWC regardless of the coach. Will it be a Bryn Gatland type to play a Sexton type game or will it be a Perofeta or McKenzie type who poses more threats at super level? Or will one of the young 10s get moulded along Sexton or Carter lines at Super level to satisfy AB needs?
Sorry to see Frizzell going too. Like many others including Mounga I think he copes too much negative press. We are well served by the best we have. It is just that the rest of the world has caught up.Hard to say how much I agree with this post. Bang on.
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After watching DMac play for the All Blacks XV & the following Barbarian's games he is head and shoulders our best option. He's always had the potential to thrive as a pivot & it's clear that his game maturity has really skyrocketed in the last 3 seasons.
I've long insisted that 10 was the position to unlock his potential (he doesn't have the size & necessary attributes for an elite fullback) and his recent performances for ABs XV & Barbarians at 10 have confirmed that. His passing selection is unreal & his kicking out of hand looks to have improved considerably. His game management is arguably better than Mo'unga & Barrett at the moment.
Add that to his broken field running, consistent goal kicking & his no fear approach to defense, I reckon he'll be our 10 for the next cycle.
He's coming into his prime tactically, he's now a really intelligent player at 10, I'm excited to see how it plays out.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
After watching DMac play for the All Blacks XV & the following Barbarian's games he is head and shoulders our best option. He's always had the potential to thrive as a pivot & it's clear that his game maturity has really skyrocketed in the last 3 seasons.
I've long insisted that 10 was the position to unlock his potential (he doesn't have the size & necessary attributes for an elite fullback) and his recent performances for ABs XV & Barbarians at 10 have confirmed that. His passing selection is unreal & his kicking out of hand looks to have improved considerably. His game management is arguably better than Mo'unga & Barrett at the moment.
Add that to his broken field running, consistent goal kicking & his no fear approach to defense, I reckon he'll be our 10 for the next cycle.
He's coming into his prime tactically, he's now a really intelligent player at 10, I'm excited to see how it plays out.
I hope you are right. We need a capable 10 to join RM for 2023 and the spot is wide open for 2024
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I'm definitely on the DMac bandwagon at the moment, but will be interesting to see how he goes next year. I'd hope he's at least in the squad.
Thinking more on our 10s game management, compared to Sexton when Ireland toured, and a big difference was that the Irish team was making sure Sexton had multiple options as often as possible when he took the ball. That makes it a lot easier to play first receiver consistently. So often when Beauden or Mo get the ball, their only options are to run it or shovel it on to the next bloke in the backline. There rarely appears to be any dummy runners or players trying to create some deception to give them some options on attack. Ireland play a simple game, but it's damn effective, and if the ABs were to replicate it at least some of the time then we have the players to really exploit it. Rieko taking the ball behind the outside shoulder of Jordie as a dummy runner will just coast through with his pace.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
After watching DMac play for the All Blacks XV & the following Barbarian's games he is head and shoulders our best option. He's always had the potential to thrive as a pivot & it's clear that his game maturity has really skyrocketed in the last 3 seasons.
I've long insisted that 10 was the position to unlock his potential (he doesn't have the size & necessary attributes for an elite fullback) and his recent performances for ABs XV & Barbarians at 10 have confirmed that. His passing selection is unreal & his kicking out of hand looks to have improved considerably. His game management is arguably better than Mo'unga & Barrett at the moment.
Add that to his broken field running, consistent goal kicking & his no fear approach to defense, I reckon he'll be our 10 for the next cycle.
He's coming into his prime tactically, he's now a really intelligent player at 10, I'm excited to see how it plays out.
Out of interest, with DMac at first five, isn't it a bit concerning Waikato didn't win the NPC?
Richie the Mo started 8 tests this season for 6 wins a draw and a loss - probably not his fault we didn't win 8 straight.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
So often when Beauden or Mo get the ball, their only options are to run it or shovel it on to the next bloke in the backline.
It's a tough one though eh - it's really hard to believe that we would have an international team (especially the ABs) that just doesn't have attacking plays/options to run, so does it come down to these guys just don't call/run/know the plays, or is the cupboard bare?
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
I'm definitely on the DMac bandwagon at the moment, but will be interesting to see how he goes next year. I'd hope he's at least in the squad.
Thinking more on our 10s game management, compared to Sexton when Ireland toured, and a big difference was that the Irish team was making sure Sexton had multiple options as often as possible when he took the ball. That makes it a lot easier to play first receiver consistently. So often when Beauden or Mo get the ball, their only options are to run it or shovel it on to the next bloke in the backline. There rarely appears to be any dummy runners or players trying to create some deception to give them some options on attack. Ireland play a simple game, but it's damn effective, and if the ABs were to replicate it at least some of the time then we have the players to really exploit it. Rieko taking the ball behind the outside shoulder of Jordie as a dummy runner will just coast through with his pace.
I don't have a complete explanation, but this game suggests we can find the answers.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
So often when Beauden or Mo get the ball, their only options are to run it or shovel it on to the next bloke in the backline.
It's a tough one though eh - it's really hard to believe that we would have an international team (especially the ABs) that just doesn't have attacking plays/options to run, so does it come down to these guys just don't call/run/know the plays, or is the cupboard bare?
Yeah, I wouldn't want us to be as structured as Ireland are, we have a lot more natural talent in our backline and playing too structured will somewhat nulify that. But it seems to me we are too far the other way at the moment, and with modern defensive systems as good as they are, our 10s are often out of ideas on what to do after a couple of phases. Teams like Ireland try to break down defenses with a series of plays in a row to march them up field. I really think we'd benefit from that sort of approach if the opposition has turned up to play and are defending like demons.
All that said, I did see some positive signs from the team on the EOYT. And to bring it kind of back on topic before @Tim bans me, I don't think the cupboard is as bare as some people make out, I just think we need to be a lot smarter about how we utilise our strengths at test level which is a different kettle of fish to Super. Whether it's Beauden, Mo'unga, DMac or even the likes of Perofeta if we get our tactics right any of those blokes can thrive.
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@kiwi_expat think the main issue is that he is unlikely to get regular starts at 10 in super to really bed in, he's likely to start at 15, maybe move in some plays or finish a game at 10.
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I not sure if I should mention his name ,(haven't checked thread), but I actually was a real Zarn Sullivan fan a couple of years back, and could see him at 10. Has that door closed do you think, like his booming left foot etc, and wouldn't mind seeing him get a few runs for Blues this year.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 10 after BB & RM finish?:
Out of interest, with DMac at first five, isn't it a bit concerning Waikato didn't win the NPC?
Richie the Mo started 8 tests this season for 6 wins a draw and a loss - probably not his fault we didn't win 8 straight.
You think any one player can make Waikato champions? It is a 15 man game, and Waikato have some serious deficiencies in that regard.
Given that Waikato did rather better than usual, I don't see how DMac can be at fault there.
(I would note that it wasn't RM's brilliance where they won the test where the opposition failed to kick the ball out in time, nor the one where the opposition were happy to accept a draw. We played to much closer to 5-3.)
