The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread
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@Tim said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
I have fond memories of when NZ held SA to nil in Cape Town on 16 August 2008.
I remember there was a bit of angst going into that match after the Boks beat us in Dunners a few weeks earlier.
But McCaw being back for this match gave us a bit of hope.
There was a bit of ‘outrage’ too going into the Dunners test - Rodders at openside, the Wulf selection, Sivi moved to the right wing, Ellis and O’Neill selections, Afoa starting.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
But McCaw being back for this match gave us a bit of hope
how many times has this been written? what a player. The Greatest All Black
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@ACT-Crusader Carter missing four in a row in the first half was not expected in the Cape Town test.
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@Tim said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@ACT-Crusader Carter missing four in a row in the first half was not expected in the Cape Town test.
Left his kicking boots at the hotel with Suzie 😉
It was a game that we just smothered the Boks and took our opportunities. A stark contrast to both the Sydney and Dunners tests.
I guess that’s the test that lies ahead for Foster, the ABs will get outplayed and even lose (or draw) matches - shock horror - but it’s how we respond and change things up which is what will help bring the lynch mob along.
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@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@ACT-Crusader said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Your basic point is right. We are great front runners, and struggle when matched up front by teams that don't play much.
but laying that at Foster's feet is a touch disingenuous because we've been like that for a long, long time. Slow the ball, limit turnovers, kick the ball out have been the keys to beating us for ages. We have, for a long time, played a simple game that is holding the opposition, then punishing the fuck out of errors (mainly bad kicks).
We don't pick teams apart with clever ball movement. We don't roll teams in the tight in a field position game and accumulate points. We rely on ruthlessly exploiting the opportunities that come from opposition errors, and a defensive system that keeps the opposition to 20 points or less. That's AB rugby.
And that predates Hansen
yes it does. It predates Ted as well.
So I guess my point is the fix is long overdue? Wasn't Plumtree supposed to add "starch" to the forward pack to fix that?
That was the PR when he was appointed
Yeah exactly, I don't think anyone was saying we move away from exploiting turnover ball, that is largely in our DNA and a good point well made. More of been able to play a different game plan, even using it just as effectively if and when required, including
changing within a game if needed.I don't see Foster as yet showing any change, unless he of course he thinks he needs different players versus different opposition. To early to tell and jury still out.
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@Rapido said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Bones said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Chris said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@ACT-Crusader said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
All fine that you don’t have confidence in Foster but pumping up the Boks and Poms when they aren’t playing any test rugby and they are going through transitions themselves, is a little presumptive
I don’t think so You only have to look at last year that was not that far ago.And where SA and England can be again I don’t see we have progressed much from the end of Hansen’s area looks kind of the same to me.
I am looking forward to 2023 are you saying SA and England will be shit then not as shit as we might be if we don’t change the coach
How many tests have they won in 2020? Who are their shining lights as players in 2020?
England have won 3 x as many games as nz this year .
They've also lost infinitely many more times than NZ.
Lies, damned lies and statistics
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@bayimports said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@ACT-Crusader said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Your basic point is right. We are great front runners, and struggle when matched up front by teams that don't play much.
but laying that at Foster's feet is a touch disingenuous because we've been like that for a long, long time. Slow the ball, limit turnovers, kick the ball out have been the keys to beating us for ages. We have, for a long time, played a simple game that is holding the opposition, then punishing the fuck out of errors (mainly bad kicks).
We don't pick teams apart with clever ball movement. We don't roll teams in the tight in a field position game and accumulate points. We rely on ruthlessly exploiting the opportunities that come from opposition errors, and a defensive system that keeps the opposition to 20 points or less. That's AB rugby.
And that predates Hansen
yes it does. It predates Ted as well.
So I guess my point is the fix is long overdue? Wasn't Plumtree supposed to add "starch" to the forward pack to fix that?
That was the PR when he was appointed
Yeah exactly, I don't think anyone was saying we move away from exploiting turnover ball, that is largely in our DNA and a good point well made. More of been able to play a different game plan, even using it just as effectively if and when required, including
changing within a game if needed.I don't see Foster as yet showing any change, unless he of course he thinks he needs different players versus different opposition. To early to tell and jury still out.
There aren't many international teams out there who have a reliable "plan b" that they execute as well as the "plan A". All top level teams start to struggle if you take their preferred game away from them.
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@mariner4life True, I don't deny that, but the ABs aren't every team and in that essence I don't think we should settle for mediocrity, if that is a failure of most teams then that for me should be a goal we solve first. Have everyone chasing us, not the other way round.
Yes I'm an idealist
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@bayimports said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life True, I don't deny that, but the ABs aren't every team and in that essence I don't think we should settle for mediocrity, if that is a failure of most teams then that for me should be a goal we solve first. Have everyone chasing us, not the other way round.
Yes I'm an idealist
Totally agree why cant we lead the pack and be one step ahead of everyone.
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"fresh off a decade where the All Blacks won 88% of the tests they played, and two World Cups, All Black fans ask "why can't we be ahead of the pack?""
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I really think they have identified the problems. The most obvious one and as the coaching staff have said, the need for more go-forward/effective forward play both to suck in defenders and to put the rush defense on the back foot. Hence having Plumtree to be in the coaching line up to add some starch there. I believe we have the dynamism and talent in the backs to leave everyone behind and there will be nowhere to hide for any team in world rugby if the AB forwards dominate to any degree.
I hope Foster can pull it off and I will be supportive but if we revert to the same old, same old that we had in 2017-2019 (that the 1st
& maybe even in some areas, the 2nd test alluded to ) I will be calling for Foster's head with the crowd. The results are important of course but the need to see change, innovation and getting ahead of the crowd are important for AB fans too. -
If you think changes were not required after the last WRC, then fine, everyone can have a different opinion. 88% is over the decade is amazing, but it didn't make the last WRC final and we were well beaten by England in the WRC. If we want to maintain 88% over the next decade, then I think we need to innovate to stay at that level. Far be it from me to try keep something on topic, but do I think Fozzie is the right person to even help us keep 88%? No, but I am willing to give him a chance.
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@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
"fresh off a decade where the All Blacks won 88% of the tests they played, and two World Cups, All Black fans ask "why can't we be ahead of the pack?""
But, but...what about the state of rugby? If Fitzy and a few others are to be believed AB success ruins rugby.
It’s like an ardent fan said to me some years ago when discussing AB success, “of course I don’t expect us to win every test, but I don’t accept that we should ever lose”
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@ACT-Crusader said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
"fresh off a decade where the All Blacks won 88% of the tests they played, and two World Cups, All Black fans ask "why can't we be ahead of the pack?""
But, but...what about the state of rugby? If Fitzy and a few others are to be believed AB success ruins rugby.
It’s like an ardent fan said to me some years ago when discussing AB success, “of course I don’t expect us to win every test, but I don’t accept that we should ever lose”
I always expect the ABs to win every test beforehand. With age I can accept defeat afterwards if the performance is okay and I think our opponent has had to raise their game to win.
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Ok this is getting more and more bizarre and stretched. Now we're even going back to 2018.
"We want improvement!"
Ok.
Australia last 3 games
-Lost
-Drew
-WonIreland last 2 games
-Lost
-Won (in a very important RWC match)SA last 2 games
-Drew
-Won (in a very important RWC match)So we're left with England, who we play very sporadically and they got up for a game last year, playing extremely well while the AB's lacked accuracy and were widely acknowledged to have made selection mistakes. Thankfully, they play this weekend against a club level side who we must be expecting to not score at all.
After the first AB test of the year, in which the AB's are known for being rusty, we played pretty ordinary and drew against a rejuvenated Australia - only to have someone ponder what an in form SA or England would do to an AB team playing like that. The same England that lost to France and scraped past Scotland and Wales this year. The same SA that won't have played a test in probably over 18 months by the time they play their next one. Imagine what an in form ABs will do to them.
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@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Your basic point is right. We are great front runners, and struggle when matched up front by teams that don't play much.
but laying that at Foster's feet is a touch disingenuous because we've been like that for a long, long time. Slow the ball, limit turnovers, kick the ball out have been the keys to beating us for ages. We have, for a long time, played a simple game that is holding the opposition, then punishing the fuck out of errors (mainly bad kicks).
We don't pick teams apart with clever ball movement. We don't roll teams in the tight in a field position game and accumulate points. We rely on ruthlessly exploiting the opportunities that come from opposition errors, and a defensive system that keeps the opposition to 20 points or less. That's AB rugby.
This. And, as part of that, a philosophy and playing style, which aims to break down the opposition's structure so that our advantage in natural talent can be exploited. The issue seems to be when we come up against teams who have a structure that's inherently tough to break and, in addition, are really disciplined in holding their structure. We really seem to come up with lemons when we play these teams, probably because sleight-of-hand, clever ball movement bodies in motion or even clinical tight play aren't huge features of our game. It would be nice, I think, if we sharpened these tools a bit more. It's not like our teams have never used them, we just don't seem to know when to use them or be able to use them that well when we do.
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https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/report?gameId=25710&league=244293
