Worst All Black RWC exits
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@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
how many of our starting pack would have started for them in 2019?
Their front rowers were better, their locks were in better form, their loosies were better...
Honestly, only Retallick and Savea would make it into a combined 8 (and Retallick largely there on reputation - certainly not on 2019 form).
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@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
how many of our starting pack would have started for them in 2019?
Their front rowers were better, their locks were in better form, their loosies were better...
Honestly, only Retallick and Savea would make it into a combined 8 (and Retallick largely there on reputation - certainly not on 2019 form).
I would have had Taylor and Coles ahead of George, but both were average that night.
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@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Agreed. While I tend to disagree with the notion that 2007 was massive choke like 1999 -
We went to France mid tournament
We didn't select Doug Howlett
We were weak mentally, didn't expect the French to show up. For me, they had such massive capability, they just didn't put on the park. That's a choke.
Did you read my post, mate? I said it wasn't a choke like 1999. I agree that we didn't have the mental skills to win that match, but that's not because we wilted in the face of a French onslaught. We controlled territory and possession throughout the match and particularly in the second half. We thought we could win one way, when absolutely anyone without their blinkers on could see that wasn't going to happen. So, yeah, it was a choke - in the sense that we failed to read the situation properly - but it was nothing like 1999, where we simply gave up.
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@Hooroo No, it's called Hansen being an ultimately inadequate international coach, unable to adapt at all, and not even remotely close to the class of Henry or Smith.
Hansen did a lot for the All Black's culture and basically like John Hart; he was a good manager, but he was always lacking in the actual coaching department. He was always the weak-link among Ted and Henry. I still remember the All Black's line-out and forwards an absolute shambles during the 2008-2009 seasons. It prompted a re-shuffle of the coaching group before the 2010 season, Henry taking over the forwards and Smith moving to Defense. We had a staggeringly good run after that change.
Wayne Smith and Graham Henry were very technical and analytical coaches.
Steve Hansen was simply a good man-manager who had no idea about strategy, tactical side of the game, nor the technical side of coaching itself, an extremely average ineffective forwards coach during his time.
Without the tactical acumen and technical expertise of Henry and Smith, the All Blacks sustained dominance simply doesn't happen. And without those two, Hansen is just your average oldschool motivational-style provincial coach.
So Hansen, a one-dimensional coach, simple-mind, with no business coaching against an astute, tactically-sound rugby mind in Jones.
So, yeah, It's not that surprising the All Blacks lost.
Anyone who thinks England had 'the better players' is simply deluded.
"only Retallick and Savea would make it into a combined 8"
Yet the same England team conceded 32 points against SA.
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@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Agreed. While I tend to disagree with the notion that 2007 was massive choke like 1999 -
We went to France mid tournament
We didn't select Doug Howlett
We were weak mentally, didn't expect the French to show up. For me, they had such massive capability, they just didn't put on the park. That's a choke.
Did you read my post, mate? I said it wasn't a choke like 1999.
Yep, but to me it really was a proper choke. Different to 99 where we switched off from 24-10 up. So yes, I did read it - but thought you were arguing that the 07 wasn't a choke. They were both terrible chokes, but different.
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@Bones Hansen was the worst Wales coach in history, 33% win percentage and only managed wins over Italy, Scotland, Tonga, Canada and Romania.
In contrast, Graham Henry finished with 60% win record with Wales. Big wins over SA, England - does 'The Great Redeemer' ring a bell?
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@taniwharugby said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@junior we were looking forward to the final in 1999, then forgot to come out of the sheds at halftime.
Yeah, I agree with that. But, when it seemed the French were getting on top, it seemed to be me that there was complete surrender, deer in the headlights stuff going on. At least in 2007 it seemed like they had a plan - even though it was the wrong one - and were willing to fight
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@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Bones Hansen was the worst Wales coach in history, 33% win percentage and only managed wins over Italy, Scotland, Tonga, Canada and Romania.
In contrast, Graham Henry finished with 60% win record with Wales. Big wins over SA, England - does 'The Great Redeemer' ring a bell?
I don't know, does he? Reckon he's got better things to do than be a bell ringer. Thanks for the slightly random facts though.
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Not wishing to trample over kiwi sensibilities with my English size 10s but 1999 was a shocker. The attitude that was displayed allowed for heaps of hubris. I recall Kronfeld, I think, winking at the tv camera as he came off at half time wearing a big shit eating grin. I tell you, if that had been an England player the cries of arrogance would still be ringing out. As someone else said above, they forgot to come out of the sheds after half time. 2007 very different. All the way through your boys knew they were in a game and we’re fighting. Too many things went against you, including the forward pass, the lack of penalties and the perceived lack of plan b.
2019 I will not comment on, I will simply look back on it with enjoyment 😁
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@Catogrande said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I recall Kronfeld, I think, winking at the tv camera
You sure he wasn't just saying hello to Marty Leslie?
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@Bones said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Catogrande said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I recall Kronfeld, I think, winking at the tv camera
You sure he wasn't just saying hello to Marty Leslie?
Clever if he was. 4 years too early?
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@Catogrande said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Bones said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Catogrande said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I recall Kronfeld, I think, winking at the tv camera
You sure he wasn't just saying hello to Marty Leslie?
Clever if he was. 4 years too early?
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@Bones said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Catogrande said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
I recall Kronfeld, I think, winking at the tv camera
You sure he wasn't just saying hello to Marty Leslie?
Brilliant. I remember when he was suspended in 2003 and the whole Scots team twitched one by one as the camera panned over each of them during the anthem.
What a tribute
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@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
We still should have found a way to win though, given the ball and territory, and forward dominance. There was a collective failing of on-field leadership, not helped by losing both our 10s. A perfect storm of absolute shit.
I've come round to thinking the 2019 exit was worse. Can't blame the reffing, minimal injuries and plenty of opportunities to seize control of the game and win it. Instead, we played like headless chooks.
In '07 everything that could have gone wrong did go wrong, but yeah, we should have found a way. At least 2007 exit set the scene for the 2011 & 2015 wins. Just hope last years abject failure does the same
