RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales
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@Siam said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
Poor Reiko. Tried so hard to do what BFA did but couldn't find it within himself. Perhaps we forget how few years he's been plying his trade.
8 minutes of watching Bender had me postulating "that's what it looks like when one is past it". 72 minutes of "You know nothing Jon Snow!"
It was almost like a switch got flicked. Bender looked old, slow and off the pace - and then suddenly he ran a good, well timed line - smashed through a couple of Welshmen to score and remembered that he is "Fucking Ben Smith". And away he went.
Rieko will have the same moment. I think it's like cricket, when you're in a bad trot. It doesn't seem like you are, but you're trying so hard and overthinking things and so your timing is fractionally out. And then suddenly you smack one through the covers out of the middle of the bat and away you go.
Two things I think I'd conclude out of this World Cup. Firstly, I suspect we didn't quite have the same bone deep hunger to win that we had in 2011. If you watch those Weight of a Nation and Chasing Great documentaries, Richie McCaw was pretty much consumed with winning in 2011 after losing in the QF in 2007. This time, we didn't have anyone in the playing team who had experienced a World Cup loss. Conversely, England has had three failures - including the humiliation of getting dumped out in pool play in their home Cup. They were so desperate, they hired Eddie!
Secondly, a bit like Ireland, I think this Cup came at a bad time in our player cycle. We had a bunch of older guys who were hanging on for this Cup and it was just a bridge too far - so we had hundreds of test caps watching from the sidelines - Franks, Bender, Crotty, SBW (from the bench).
So much that was pretty much new this season:
Nepo as the premier tighthead.
Angus and Ofa (loosehead) as the bench props.
Ardie and Sam as the dual opensides.
Scott Barrett as a blindside flanker.
Beaunga.
Anton and Jack as the premier midfield.
George and Sevu as the wings.The experienced players, unfortunately, were no longer the best players. And then you add in a few other factors like Retallick getting injured, Rieko losing some form, I reckon Sam Whitelock wasn't in top form either, leaving Sam Cane on the bench....
You can kind of imagine Eddie's team talk - "These guys are good players, but they're not legends - and we don't need to fear them. They're rookies and if we pressure them, they'll pop like a pimple!"
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Whilst a solid win, I think the game highlighted the same old weaknesses we have seen pretty much ever since the Lions tour mixed in with that individual brilliance that gets them points. For example, the ABs really need to be more confrontational / structured in the forwards at times (earn the right to go wide) and to be more pragmatic when they are in vulnerable positions on the field. At the moment the balanced just doesn't seem right. Helter-skelter and hope for the best kind of scenario.
Got the same feeling as someone mentioned before that maybe Jodie Barrett just isn't that good. Last weeks mistake was just beyond silly, it was comical.
Anyway, last night's game highlighted and confirmed one thing, we need a new coaching group. -
@MrDenmore said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
Coltman for number 8?
Not sure he's got the right height to weight ratio
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@canefan said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Chris-B I agree with you about the timing and our player cycle. Some of the younger players will form the core of the 2023 team, with greater experience and hopefully armed with the pain of 2019 to fuel them to victory
England even more potential
27 - The average age of @EnglandRugby's starting XVs at #RWC2019 is 27 years and 63 days, the youngest of any Tier 1 side and the 3rd youngest overall behind Uruguay (26y 140d) and Namibia (27y 43d). Future. -
@voodoo said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
Awful game. Have no idea why its played.
Like most World Cup events there is a 3rd/4th - Bronze medal match.
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@ACT-Crusader also did you see the crowd at the game, says it all really.
That fend was a thing of beauty, Cory Jane would be proud.
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All the talk of Ben Smith being old and slow was always bullshit I think. He's never been particularly fast, his acceleration and footwork in traffic have always been his strength, along with low error-rate, good option-taking and strength in the air.
He was good all super season at 15, then the ABs drop him from his preferred position and give him really limited shots to get used to wing again in poor team performances and all of a sudden he's out of the 23 for jordie barrett, who - at this stage of his career - is always on for a fucking howler of a mistake, and didn't really deserve a place in the squad in the first place. I was/am okay with the mounga/barrett combo, but smith probably should have started on the wing, and absolutely bloody definitely should have made the bench.As for Barrett over Cane. Sure you can see the theory, attack the lineout, but you don't drop sam cane to play scott barrett out of position and expect your defence to be okay. the cane/frizzell combo was actually really good in this game, gave the early defensive platform that everything else flowed from.
as for those thinking SBW would have made a difference, yeah, nah. when has he ever? alb has been great all year, and goodhue too - and he was our best in the loss. crotty should have been on the bench instead of sbw for composure and mistake-free footy.
we've got to stop thinking of the bench as being full of ball-runners who are going to stick an extra 20 points on an already-beaten opposition, and pretending that is 'impact'. Rassie showed us this WC what real bench impact looks like: a full tight 5 of big hard fluffybunnies, not a flash-harry amongst them - and they're subbing all the guys who physically are least suited to endurance. that's actually a situation where i could support jordie being picked - if it was just him and a halfback who both barely play barring injury or the result being beyond doubt, to allow a bench stacked with forwards.
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@reprobate said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
now i'm no rieko hater, but centre? now that's remarkable.
Not advocating for him as a centre, but Rieko actually spent a lot of time (relative to the time he got on the field) at centre in this RWC.
Canada: Switched at the 50 minute mark. (30 mins)
Namibia: Came on for Goodhue at the 60 minute mark. (20 mins)
Wales: Switched at 56 minutes. (24 mins) -
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Hooroo I still have one too, one of those burner ones where I converted all my tapes on to DVD
I've got a bunch of All Black games raped from mid 80s to early 90a of you want them.....?
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@BartMan said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Hooroo I still have one too, one of those burner ones where I converted all my tapes on to DVD
I've got a bunch of All Black games raped from mid 80s to early 90a of you want them.....?
good to see old fat fingered BartMan back!!
I dont actually use it, it sits in the TV cabinet gathering dust now all the stuff I wanted to keep is on DVD (somewhere...
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@reprobate said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
All the talk of Ben Smith being old and slow was always bullshit I think. He's never been particularly fast, his acceleration and footwork in traffic have always been his strength, along with low error-rate, good option-taking and strength in the air.
He was good all super season at 15, then the ABs drop him from his preferred position and give him really limited shots to get used to wing again in poor team performances and all of a sudden he's out of the 23 for jordie barrett, who - at this stage of his career - is always on for a fucking howler of a mistake, and didn't really deserve a place in the squad in the first place. I was/am okay with the mounga/barrett combo, but smith probably should have started on the wing, and absolutely bloody definitely should have made the bench.As for Barrett over Cane. Sure you can see the theory, attack the lineout, but you don't drop sam cane to play scott barrett out of position and expect your defence to be okay. the cane/frizzell combo was actually really good in this game, gave the early defensive platform that everything else flowed from.
as for those thinking SBW would have made a difference, yeah, nah. when has he ever? alb has been great all year, and goodhue too - and he was our best in the loss. crotty should have been on the bench instead of sbw for composure and mistake-free footy.
we've got to stop thinking of the bench as being full of ball-runners who are going to stick an extra 20 points on an already-beaten opposition, and pretending that is 'impact'. Rassie showed us this WC what real bench impact looks like: a full tight 5 of big hard fluffybunnies, not a flash-harry amongst them - and they're subbing all the guys who physically are least suited to endurance. that's actually a situation where i could support jordie being picked - if it was just him and a halfback who both barely play barring injury or the result being beyond doubt, to allow a bench stacked with forwards.
Agree with all of that. Especially the myth of Ben Smiths poor form that even Hansen had convinced himself of.
But adding the Ben Smith non selection to the Barrett over Cane selection, bringing in green props on the eve of the RWC, the poor management of Rieko, the muddled selections in midfield, the complete fuck up that was made of finding a replacement for Kaino and the general push towards a helter skelter style of play (aka non RWC winning) to fit BB and DMac into the side and it’s clear Hansen has lost the plot a bit over the last 2 years.Time for some fresh ideas.
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@pukunui I think injuries and illness over thep ast 18 months or so played thier part in hampering them getting the best 12/13 combo out there more.
For me, the best performed combo in that period was Crotty/ALB, but by the same token, Goodhue was one of the few to come out of the semi-final without his rep being dented.
IMO SBW was always a part of the puzzle, they seemd to want to get Goodhue out there too, but ALBs form threw a spanner in there, and Crotty being the class act he is, was always a 'fallback' option, plus Laumape sitting outside the circle...ended up having too many options and used them.
I reckon the change in style still wasnt bedded in, so they changed it to what they thought they need v England, we know how that turned out.
As I have said, I think SB starting wasnt the issue, it was more likely BBBR's fitness/form, and starting SB with Cane, an angry BBBR off the bench would have been the better bet...hindsight is wonderful
I'd always have had BFA in the 23 over Jordie, in hidnsight, BFA over Bridge in that semi would have been ideal, but prior to that, he was deserving.
oh well, we have months to dissect before the black jersies get pulled out again.
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So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
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@Rebound said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
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@sparky said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Rebound said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky which seemed to change slightly from pool play to finals in terms of strictness and TMO involvement....
Yeah I think the RWC has highlighted to the world, the poor/invoncsistant refeereing - esp how it was a card game in the pools, then they were put away for the knock outs. Ridiculous.
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@Machpants said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@Rebound said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
So what was the final score ABs 40 Wales 10 Barnes 14 (he gets double points for his two tries, 1 not given and one given). Probably why he got voted ref of the year. Hopefully reffing standards goes up up, the moment he and Garces ride into the sunsight. A real blight for far too many years, poor reffing
This. Worst thing about this tournament was the terrible standard of the referees.
@taniwharugby said in RWC: 3rd/4th game All Blacks vs Wales:
@sparky which seemed to change slightly from pool play to finals in terms of strictness and TMO involvement....
Yeah I think the RWC has highlighted to the world, the poor/invoncsistant refeereing - esp how it was a card game in the pools, then they were put away for the knock outs. Ridiculous.
I read that as a success for WR and the judiciary.
There was a distinct lack of high shots as the tournament hit the latter stages. And trust me we'd have heard about them via social media trolls (especially if there was even a sniff of an AB thinking about going high).
Maybe players and coaches learned?
