All Blacks vs Scotland
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I think some of comments on this selection are infected by anti Fozzie hate rather than rational thinking on team selection (aside from my complaining about Frizell, that is clearly rational). We often play a closer to B team against Scotland. In 2014 we threw out Slade on the wing, Thrush and Bird as our locks, and some dude call McCaw at 6.
I'm not sure we've ever put out an A team against them on an EOYT.
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@Kirwan said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The 10, 12, 13, combo is so bad… both Havili and ALB are more playmakers than guys who can carry hard. And they'll be getting average ball cause BB will be shuffling it across.
BB plays so much better with a hard runner at 12.. and his brother happens to be our best 12.. makes way too much sense to start them together.
They should be used to that with RM shuffling it across? They might have a bit more time with BB as he won’t try a touch style side step backwards first.
He likes to just stop instead 😁
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The 10, 12, 13, combo is so bad… both Havili and ALB are more playmakers than guys who can carry hard. And they'll be getting average ball cause BB will be shuffling it across.
BB plays so much better with a hard runner at 12.. and his brother happens to be our best 12.. makes way too much sense to start them together.
Nah not at all. Makes more sense to try the Barrett combo against a tiring defence. Hopefully they do it in second half. I presume RM is seen as our 10 and BB our 15 so that may be how they combine in future.
Given the short rest before England match I suspect they have prioritised the selection of the best xv for that and have planned deliberate rest for those starting last week so not 3 starts in a row.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I think some of comments on this selection are infected by anti Fozzie hate rather than rational thinking on team selection (aside from my complaining about Frizell, that is clearly rational). We often play a closer to B team against Scotland. In 2014 we threw out Slade on the wing, Thrush and Bird as our locks, and some dude call McCaw at 6.
I'm not sure we've ever put out an A team against them on an EOYT.
In 2014 we could have put Owen Franks on the wing and still won. It isn't 2014 anymore.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@broughie said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Steve Now and all fairness, and I don't think Havilli is good at 12, when the pack dominates he operated a lot better. But Jordy will be back to 12 for England unless Foster is a twit.
Would there be anyone here who prefers DH at 12 over JB, especially against England? Not me.
We aren't playing England though. Not this game.
I don't get this obsession with expecting the best 23 every game. We have to decide own and develop a full squad for next year. Sometimes there will be a need to shuffle a little. Sometimes it pays off too.
I think where the problem is with chopping and changing is that because Fozzie's record is so poor, we're effectively a year behind in our development of a full squad. With 10 or so tests before the QF, is that enough time between now and then to allow the squad with all the constant changes to gel and seamlessly switch in and out every test?
Are you trying to support my point?
With what happened earlier this year we lost some chances to mix things up for the whole squad. Are you saying we should pick a 23 and try and ride it as much as possible to the World Cup? That would be dumb even for Foster.So JB has had two tests at 12. Many are saying he hasn't played enough against decent opposition to be considered the answer. But then he would have played only 2 of the last 4 tests at 12. So do we play him to prove himself or switch shit up every 5 minutes?
Just because he doesn't start at 12 doesn't mean he doesn't play 12.
Jordie shifted to 12 in Melbourne.
Played 12 at Eden Park and Cardiff
Will shift to 12 in this game (I imagine).
So if he walk Jamaican, talk Jamaican, then why is he Japanese?
We don't have 4 years to develop him at 12 anymore. We don't have 4 years to develop his partnership with RI or ALB. And the way they're chopping and changing, he most likely has 5 non-consecutive tests with god knows who as his partner.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm not sure we've ever put out an A team against them on an EOYT.
I'm pretty sure we did in 2017 & we scraped through by 4 points.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm not sure we've ever put out an A team against them on an EOYT.
I'm pretty sure we did in 2017 & we scraped through by 4 points.
A game that we got a couple of YCs and started Kane Hames and Fifita. And Fifita played about half the game at lock. Was Ioane, Naholo and DMac our first choice back 3?
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Looks like we will have to deal with Farrell/Tuilagi MF with Slade coming off the bench. So a big MOFO like JB who identifies the space and can distribute could be a tonic.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I think some of comments on this selection are infected by anti Fozzie hate rather than rational thinking on team selection (aside from my complaining about Frizell, that is clearly rational). We often play a closer to B team against Scotland. In 2014 we threw out Slade on the wing, Thrush and Bird as our locks, and some dude call McCaw at 6.
I'm not sure we've ever put out an A team against them on an EOYT.
In 2014 we could have put Owen Franks on the wing and still won. It isn't 2014 anymore.
Nehe Milner Skudder did a pretty fair impression of Owen Franks on the wing in his later years it has to be said
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I think some of comments on this selection are infected by anti Fozzie hate rather than rational thinking on team selection (aside from my complaining about Frizell, that is clearly rational). We often play a closer to B team against Scotland. In 2014 we threw out Slade on the wing, Thrush and Bird as our locks, and some dude call McCaw at 6.
I'm not sure we've ever put out an A team against them on an EOYT.
It isn't 2014 anymore.
Yeah that's true. Scotland didn't make it out of pool play at the last world cup.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Are there really that many changes?
Up until a few tests ago Havili was our best 12 and Jordie our best 15.
There's no clear owner of the 6 jersey so it could well be argued it's the strongest loose forward trio.
The centre has played 58 tests.
Our best hooker is starting.
Hardly screams disrespect.
Agreed. I would have been way more disrespectful if I was selecting.
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@MN5 said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I think some of comments on this selection are infected by anti Fozzie hate rather than rational thinking on team selection (aside from my complaining about Frizell, that is clearly rational). We often play a closer to B team against Scotland. In 2014 we threw out Slade on the wing, Thrush and Bird as our locks, and some dude call McCaw at 6.
I'm not sure we've ever put out an A team against them on an EOYT.
In 2014 we could have put Owen Franks on the wing and still won. It isn't 2014 anymore.
Nehe Milner Skudder did a pretty fair impression of Owen Franks on the wing in his later years it has to be said
Caleb Clarke did the same the last few weekends
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@broughie said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Steve Now and all fairness, and I don't think Havilli is good at 12, when the pack dominates he operated a lot better. But Jordy will be back to 12 for England unless Foster is a twit.
Would there be anyone here who prefers DH at 12 over JB, especially against England? Not me.
We aren't playing England though. Not this game.
I don't get this obsession with expecting the best 23 every game. We have to decide own and develop a full squad for next year. Sometimes there will be a need to shuffle a little. Sometimes it pays off too.
I think where the problem is with chopping and changing is that because Fozzie's record is so poor, we're effectively a year behind in our development of a full squad. With 10 or so tests before the QF, is that enough time between now and then to allow the squad with all the constant changes to gel and seamlessly switch in and out every test?
Are you trying to support my point?
With what happened earlier this year we lost some chances to mix things up for the whole squad. Are you saying we should pick a 23 and try and ride it as much as possible to the World Cup? That would be dumb even for Foster.So JB has had two tests at 12. Many are saying he hasn't played enough against decent opposition to be considered the answer. But then he would have played only 2 of the last 4 tests at 12. So do we play him to prove himself or switch shit up every 5 minutes?
The Foster Co op are building a squad of 14-15 backs for RWC2023. They can't do that by focussing on one player in one position or playing their no.1 backline every game possible.
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@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I think some of comments on this selection are infected by anti Fozzie hate rather than rational thinking on team selection (aside from my complaining about Frizell, that is clearly rational).
Possibly. IIRC there were a few on here praying for the Boks to ream us at Ellis Park in the hope that would get Foster removed.
"Foster not playing Jordie at 12 and starting Sami every game shows what a shit coach he is"
Which would probably change, when we have a close win against a minor opponent at RWC2023, to:
"Foster not haven given game time to his second string 12 and hooker shows what a shit coach he is"
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My main grievence is we know what DH offers at 12 and he has played a lot of games there in recent times, we learn nothing new with him playing vs Scotland. JB however has had 2 games at 12 and has been fantastic. 12 has been an issue for us since Nonu 7 years ago. JB appears to be the answer and IMO needs as many games starting at 12 as we can to see if he continues to impress and grow.
What we probably need is to give someone time at 15, if JB does move to 12 permanently and BB or RM gets injured, we need another option.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
What we probably need is to give someone time at 15, if JB does move to 12 permanently and BB or RM gets injured, we need another option.
That's why I find it interesting Stevenson is at 15 for ABs XV.....
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm not sure we've ever put out an A team against them on an EOYT.
I'm pretty sure we did in 2017 & we scraped through by 4 points.
A game that we got a couple of YCs and started Kane Hames and Fifita. And Fifita played about half the game at lock. Was Ioane, Naholo and DMac our first choice back 3?
Yep. Laulala also started, I think Fifita played second half at lock and Squire came on at 6 replacing Romano.
So not really our A team I'd say.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
My main grievence is we know what DH offers at 12 and he has played a lot of games there in recent times, we learn nothing new with him playing vs Scotland. JB however has had 2 games at 12 and has been fantastic. 12 has been an issue for us since Nonu 7 years ago. JB appears to be the answer and IMO needs as many games starting at 12 as we can to see if he continues to impress and grow.
What we probably need is to give someone time at 15, if JB does move to 12 permanently and BB or RM gets injured, we need another option.
Fair points. But what happens if the first choice 12, Jordie, gets injured?
It isn't an ideal situation due to lack of games until RWC2023, but we are where we are. Foster thinks it important to give his send string midfield a run (though I don't regard ALB as second string) and, agree or not, it makes sense.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
My main grievence is we know what DH offers at 12 and he has played a lot of games there in recent times, we learn nothing new with him playing vs Scotland. JB however has had 2 games at 12 and has been fantastic. 12 has been an issue for us since Nonu 7 years ago. JB appears to be the answer and IMO needs as many games starting at 12 as we can to see if he continues to impress and grow.
What we probably need is to give someone time at 15, if JB does move to 12 permanently and BB or RM gets injured, we need another option.
Fair points. But what happens if the first choice 12, Jordie, gets injured?
It isn't an ideal situation due to lack of games until RWC2023, but we are where we are. Foster thinks it important to give his send string midfield a run (though I don't regard ALB as second string) and, agree or not, it makes sense.
We have DH/ALB who have played a lot of games at 12 and are known quantities, I would much prefer having JB spending as much time as possible at 12 if we believe he is going to be there come RWC which I hope he is. I hope ALB stays fit as I like him as a player and would have loved to have seen JB/ALB with RI on the wing start this one.
