All Blacks 2021
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke If he was such an excellent candidate, then surely it would be easy to point to some test match performances?
It doesn't make it easy to point out a particular test because he was always in & out of the team, which also makes it difficult for him to get a combo going with the other incumbent midfielder, but can remember him playing well in parts of tests... by watching any player you see if they have the goods to play in tests, he certainly did.
Since the days of Nonu/Smith we have always struggle to find a really good midfield combo, ALB/Goodhue midfield played a lot of tests together, but never had much to offer on attack.I can only recall about 4 times that Goodhue and ALB ever started together. Isn't that a bit of a harsh judgment on limited opportunities? Regardless, wings seem to score plenty of tries when ALB plays, and Goodhue was shaping up well. Ryan Crotty and Sonny Bill Williams were pretty useful too. The selectors seemed to make good use of whomever was available in my eyes, and Laumape got his share of matches.
Question for you though - how many times did Laumape play South Africa or the 4 British teams? I remember a loss and a draw against the Lions when he came on the scene, but that is about it. Perhaps he chose to leave before he was tested against the likes of England, Ireland and South Africa, so the jury remains out there. Maybe I have it wrong, but I don't think you can draw such strong conclusions that coaches have it so wrong on the evidence presented. -
@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke halfbacks are yappy dickheads who ignore reality.
Wonder if there are any half backs posting on this thread?
At least you got it 😉
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke halfbacks are yappy dickheads who ignore reality.
Wonder if there are any half backs posting on this thread?
At least you got it 😉
Have no idea what you mean ...
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat isnt that what we want, a forward thinking coach
It's just like Hansen repeatedly assured us while we were looking like a "structureless rabble throughout the 2018, then 2019 seasons, "judge us by the world cup" he repeatedly told the public, as those record losses to Australia & Ireland were all part of the grand master-plan, after all...
The nadir of Hansen's reign was the RWC2019 Semi where the term "structureless rabble" was taken to a whole new level of meaning. And unlike 2007 we didn't have the excuse of a shit Ref.
We've been on the slide for 4-5 years now and the problems seem to be deeper than just the coaching set-up.
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@voodoo said in All Blacks 2021:
I think the worst thing he claimed, and didn't deliver on, was the commitment to physicality in the forwards.
The frustration for me is we seem to have periods on the pitch when they forwards are absolutely dominant and then, more often than not, give up momentum by stupid mistakes and gift the opposition the initiative. We've lost the ability to ride out those periods when things just don't go well - we end up trying too hard and making things worse.
It's a head space thing that's missing, for me.
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@frank said in All Blacks 2021:
Kudos to him - but subsequent events are dimming my view of him, particularly how he dismisses any questioning of him or his boy toy Foster
Hansen went from a 1000w bulb to a £1.50 plug-in night-light after his 2019 RWC campaign in my book. The rot started with him.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@booboo I played 9 about half my "career" but I was more like a slow 6 with a shit pass...
Eddie likes that skillset for England, and needs a replacement for Ben Youngs tbh?
The only criticism of Smith isn't that he box kicks as per team tactics, only that he's not as accurate as say Connor Murray, who can be pinpoint on a good day. On attack he takes very heads-up options.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@frank said in All Blacks 2021:
Kudos to him - but subsequent events are dimming my view of him, particularly how he dismisses any questioning of him or his boy toy Foster
Hansen went from a 1000w bulb to a £1.50 plug-in night-light after his 2019 RWC campaign in my book. The rot started with him.
Are you from Waikato by any chance?
It's well documented that in Steve Hansen's last 2-3 years (during the period Wayne Smith departed) Foster's influence across general team decisions increased dramatically. He was basically empowered by Hansen to run the team trainings, oversee team strategy etc.. with Hansen transitioning into a more directorial, far less hands on role. Foster shouldered increased media duties well in the lead up to 2019, in addition to having increased ownership over trainings, general team patterns, game-planning etc..
Hansen shouldered the majority of the strategy, training specifics and game-planning from 2012-2017, with Foster in a more low-profile specific backs role, working solely on the performance of the backline. This all changed after W.Smith left.
The pattern is clear, the All Black's rapid decline is directly correlated with Fozzie's increased influence on the team.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p I'd be happy for Razor to get the top job because of his energy, enthusiasm and ability to get the very best out of his players, but with a heavyweight, experienced Assistant (Smith, Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Gatland, even Deans or Mitchell).
Yeah, Razor is an excellent coach & would do a really good job as head coach for the AB's - he has good rugby nous, so certainly wouldn't need to rely heavily on a very experienced coaching assistant - it's not vital if hasn't coached another country overseas, also the bloke is in his mid to late 40's & has won 4 or 5 Super Rugby titles... NZ Super Rugby is based on a really fast paced game, the same style the ABs play, so with all his experience as a Super Rugby coach he's the type of bloke we need, would have liked a Robertson/Brown combo, would be a top mix as one use to play in the forwards & the other in the backs.
Where does this confidence come from? With Smith, Henry, Hansen, Jones, Gatland, McKenzie, Wyllie, Hart and Deans (whichever job you count) shit hit the fan during their first international appointment. Why would Razor be any different and things go to custard like his second campaign with the U20s?
Also why are we so sure that he isn't going to follow the trend of most (but not all) Crusaders/Canterbury coaches having major issues once moving to a different environment?
I'm in favour of a Razor appointment in the style of Rassie, Cheika or Mitch given where we are in the cycle. He is well suited to shake things up and will improve the side in the short term. But we have to be realistic that over the medium to long term the odds are against him.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@frank said in All Blacks 2021:
Kudos to him - but subsequent events are dimming my view of him, particularly how he dismisses any questioning of him or his boy toy Foster
Hansen went from a 1000w bulb to a £1.50 plug-in night-light after his 2019 RWC campaign in my book. The rot started with him.
Are you from Waikato by any chance?
It's well documented that in Steve Hansen's last 2-3 years (during the period Wayne Smith departed) Foster's influence across general team decisions increased dramatically. He was basically empowered by Hansen to run the team trainings, oversee team strategy etc.. with Hansen transitioning into a more directorial, far less hands on role. Foster shouldered increased media duties well in the lead up to 2019, in addition to having increased ownership over trainings, general team patterns, game-planning etc..
Hansen shouldered the majority of the strategy, training specifics and game-planning from 2012-2017, with Foster in a more low-profile specific backs role, working solely on the performance of the backline. This all changed after W.Smith left.
The pattern is clear, the All Black's rapid decline is directly correlated with Fozzie's increased influence on the team.
Blaming all the issues of the last 5 years on one man is pretty silly IMHO - the current AB problems are way deeper and more complex than the date of an Assistant Coach's appointment.
Unless you believe Foster's also personally responsible for, say, the lack of international - class halfbacks to back up Aaron Smith...
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@rotated said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p I'd be happy for Razor to get the top job because of his energy, enthusiasm and ability to get the very best out of his players, but with a heavyweight, experienced Assistant (Smith, Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Gatland, even Deans or Mitchell).
Yeah, Razor is an excellent coach & would do a really good job as head coach for the AB's - he has good rugby nous, so certainly wouldn't need to rely heavily on a very experienced coaching assistant - it's not vital if hasn't coached another country overseas, also the bloke is in his mid to late 40's & has won 4 or 5 Super Rugby titles... NZ Super Rugby is based on a really fast paced game, the same style the ABs play, so with all his experience as a Super Rugby coach he's the type of bloke we need, would have liked a Robertson/Brown combo, would be a top mix as one use to play in the forwards & the other in the backs.
Where does this confidence come from? With Smith, Henry, Hansen, Jones, Gatland, McKenzie, Wyllie, Hart and Deans (whichever job you count) shit hit the fan during their first international appointment. Why would Razor be any different and things go to custard like his second campaign with the U20s?
Also why are we so sure that he isn't going to follow the trend of most (but not all) Crusaders/Canterbury coaches having major issues once moving to a different environment?
I'm in favour of a Razor appointment in the style of Rassie, Cheika or Mitch given where we are in the cycle. He is well suited to shake things up and will improve the side in the short term. But we have to be realistic that over the medium to long term the odds are against him.
It pays to note that Razor was only 41 years of age (had only been a pro head coach for 2 years) during that U20 campaign, while they finished with the best points differential, and despite losing that single pool match (2nd seed in their pool, with superior PD to Ireland) didn't quality for the knockouts (2016 was the 1st season where the U20 tournament format changed to having only the no1 seed from each pool going through). He then proceeded to put 71 points and 55 points respectively on Wales & Australia in the plate matches.
Razor's record with the U20's was still 93%, he dropped that one game in 2016, and his 2015 win was NZ's first since 2011.. the longest drought they'd seen.
What's become extensively clear is the biggest issues for NZ under Foster has been the breakdown, set-piece, and winning the contact when carrying.
Crucially, these are 3 areas that Razor and Jason Ryan hold key expertise in.
Razor being a breakdown & ruck specialist and Ryan with our set-pieces.
It's time to finally implement some remedies, the meaningful ones.
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@kiwi_expat Robertson's U20 side got completely dominated in the forwards by Ireland in that loss. I remember watching the game live. It has been a common theme in all loses by NZ teams (ABs and age-group), in that without a forward platform we struggle. Rugby 101. You can't rely on the x-factor backs to win every time.
You also can't blame Foster for what happened up front in the SF loss to England at RWC 2019. It was Hansen's call to drop Cane and play S Barrett, and the forwards coach was Cron.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@frank said in All Blacks 2021:
Kudos to him - but subsequent events are dimming my view of him, particularly how he dismisses any questioning of him or his boy toy Foster
Hansen went from a 1000w bulb to a £1.50 plug-in night-light after his 2019 RWC campaign in my book. The rot started with him.
Are you from Waikato by any chance?
It's well documented that in Steve Hansen's last 2-3 years (during the period Wayne Smith departed) Foster's influence across general team decisions increased dramatically. He was basically empowered by Hansen to run the team trainings, oversee team strategy etc.. with Hansen transitioning into a more directorial, far less hands on role. Foster shouldered increased media duties well in the lead up to 2019, in addition to having increased ownership over trainings, general team patterns, game-planning etc..
Hansen shouldered the majority of the strategy, training specifics and game-planning from 2012-2017, with Foster in a more low-profile specific backs role, working solely on the performance of the backline. This all changed after W.Smith left.
The pattern is clear, the All Black's rapid decline is directly correlated with Fozzie's increased influence on the team.
Poor old Foster, it's his fault even when he's not in charge.
I blame him for the 1999 World Cup loss as well.
The prick forgot to wear his lucky underpants that day. It had a ripple effect through the entire cosmos. -
@frank said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@frank said in All Blacks 2021:
Kudos to him - but subsequent events are dimming my view of him, particularly how he dismisses any questioning of him or his boy toy Foster
Hansen went from a 1000w bulb to a £1.50 plug-in night-light after his 2019 RWC campaign in my book. The rot started with him.
Are you from Waikato by any chance?
It's well documented that in Steve Hansen's last 2-3 years (during the period Wayne Smith departed) Foster's influence across general team decisions increased dramatically. He was basically empowered by Hansen to run the team trainings, oversee team strategy etc.. with Hansen transitioning into a more directorial, far less hands on role. Foster shouldered increased media duties well in the lead up to 2019, in addition to having increased ownership over trainings, general team patterns, game-planning etc..
Hansen shouldered the majority of the strategy, training specifics and game-planning from 2012-2017, with Foster in a more low-profile specific backs role, working solely on the performance of the backline. This all changed after W.Smith left.
The pattern is clear, the All Black's rapid decline is directly correlated with Fozzie's increased influence on the team.
Poor old Foster, it's his fault even when he's not in charge.
I blame him for the 1999 World Cup loss as well.
The prick forgot to wear his lucky underpants that day. It had a ripple effect through the entire cosmos."Earthquake in Peru. Foster to Blame"
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It's really quite frightening how far we've fallen since Foster's role was expanded after Wayne Smith left in 2017.
We used to be 1 step ahead of the curb, constantly innovating & evolving our methods to retain our advantage.
In 2004, Henry came in and said "we need a revolution in how we play, like after the 68 Lions tour". They changed our forward play and everything else.
We never took a backwards step thanks to being open & bringing in knowledge and expertise from variety of different fields, Mick Bryne AFL, Enoka mental skills, Cron, etc.. we did anything to stay ahead of the chasing pack, the humility to admit that perhaps we should bring in some critical outside expertise for this particular area..
Hansen & his descendants have been so arrogant/insular about playing their 'brand' of unstructured, one-dimensional, helter skelter rugby, comfy inside in their own echo chambers, and refuse to evolve tactically and make meaningful adjustments to fundamental areas of our game, instead we have been purposefully neglecting them..
Foster has been involved with this team for a considerably long time now, and the issues that were present years back, still remain there now, and as other teams improve, being exposed even further..
The cluttered forward play, absence of a coherent plan, lack of discernable structure, is all on the coaching staff.
I don't see this coaching team as being able to learn, adapt and more importantly, grow.
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@rotated said in All Blacks 2021:
I'm in favour of a Razor appointment in the style of Rassie, Cheika or Mitch given where we are in the cycle. He is well suited to shake things up and will improve the side in the short term. But we have to be realistic that over the medium to long term the odds are against him.
Change/shake-ups can often bring a temporary improvement ( it's called the Hawthorne Effect) and that, along with a cold, hard look at top level rugby in NZ, is probably the best way forward.
Just swapping out Foster isn't going to fix the bigger problems.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
It's really quite frightening how far we've fallen since Foster's role was expanded after Wayne Smith left in 2017.
I'd say the decline had more to do with the latter than the former.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@rotated said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p I'd be happy for Razor to get the top job because of his energy, enthusiasm and ability to get the very best out of his players, but with a heavyweight, experienced Assistant (Smith, Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Gatland, even Deans or Mitchell).
Yeah, Razor is an excellent coach & would do a really good job as head coach for the AB's - he has good rugby nous, so certainly wouldn't need to rely heavily on a very experienced coaching assistant - it's not vital if hasn't coached another country overseas, also the bloke is in his mid to late 40's & has won 4 or 5 Super Rugby titles... NZ Super Rugby is based on a really fast paced game, the same style the ABs play, so with all his experience as a Super Rugby coach he's the type of bloke we need, would have liked a Robertson/Brown combo, would be a top mix as one use to play in the forwards & the other in the backs.
Where does this confidence come from? With Smith, Henry, Hansen, Jones, Gatland, McKenzie, Wyllie, Hart and Deans (whichever job you count) shit hit the fan during their first international appointment. Why would Razor be any different and things go to custard like his second campaign with the U20s?
Also why are we so sure that he isn't going to follow the trend of most (but not all) Crusaders/Canterbury coaches having major issues once moving to a different environment?
I'm in favour of a Razor appointment in the style of Rassie, Cheika or Mitch given where we are in the cycle. He is well suited to shake things up and will improve the side in the short term. But we have to be realistic that over the medium to long term the odds are against him.
It pays to note that Razor was only 41 years of age (had only been a pro head coach for 2 years) during that U20 campaign, while they finished with the best points differential, and despite losing that single pool match (2nd seed in their pool, with superior PD to Ireland) didn't quality for the knockouts (2016 was the 1st season where the U20 tournament format changed to having only the no1 seed from each pool going through). He then proceeded to put 71 points and 55 points respectively on Wales & Australia in the plate matches.
Razor's record with the U20's was still 93%, he dropped that one game in 2016, and his 2015 win was NZ's first since 2011.. the longest drought they'd seen.
What's become extensively clear is the biggest issues for NZ under Foster has been the breakdown, set-piece, and winning the contact when carrying.
Crucially, these are 3 areas that Razor and Jason Ryan hold key expertise in.
Razor being a breakdown & ruck specialist and Ryan with our set-pieces.
It's time to finally implement some remedies, the meaningful ones.
They got smashed by Ireland then turned around and burgled a win against Wales with a last minute Jordie Barrett penalty.
Now this was five years ago so no one should hold it too much against him, but he obviously doesn't have some midas touch if we are struggling to put away Wales and Ireland at age group level with him at the helm.
For me success at domestic or Super Rugby level is the price of admission to be considered as AB coach, but only that. One SR title is as good as five to me. More interested in breadth of experience.
What was Shane Warne's sledge on Monty Panesar? He hasn't played thirty tests, he has played the same test thirty times. There is a bit of that with Robertson as there was with Deans.
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@rotated said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@rotated said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p I'd be happy for Razor to get the top job because of his energy, enthusiasm and ability to get the very best out of his players, but with a heavyweight, experienced Assistant (Smith, Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Gatland, even Deans or Mitchell).
Yeah, Razor is an excellent coach & would do a really good job as head coach for the AB's - he has good rugby nous, so certainly wouldn't need to rely heavily on a very experienced coaching assistant - it's not vital if hasn't coached another country overseas, also the bloke is in his mid to late 40's & has won 4 or 5 Super Rugby titles... NZ Super Rugby is based on a really fast paced game, the same style the ABs play, so with all his experience as a Super Rugby coach he's the type of bloke we need, would have liked a Robertson/Brown combo, would be a top mix as one use to play in the forwards & the other in the backs.
Where does this confidence come from? With Smith, Henry, Hansen, Jones, Gatland, McKenzie, Wyllie, Hart and Deans (whichever job you count) shit hit the fan during their first international appointment. Why would Razor be any different and things go to custard like his second campaign with the U20s?
Also why are we so sure that he isn't going to follow the trend of most (but not all) Crusaders/Canterbury coaches having major issues once moving to a different environment?
I'm in favour of a Razor appointment in the style of Rassie, Cheika or Mitch given where we are in the cycle. He is well suited to shake things up and will improve the side in the short term. But we have to be realistic that over the medium to long term the odds are against him.
It pays to note that Razor was only 41 years of age (had only been a pro head coach for 2 years) during that U20 campaign, while they finished with the best points differential, and despite losing that single pool match (2nd seed in their pool, with superior PD to Ireland) didn't quality for the knockouts (2016 was the 1st season where the U20 tournament format changed to having only the no1 seed from each pool going through). He then proceeded to put 71 points and 55 points respectively on Wales & Australia in the plate matches.
Razor's record with the U20's was still 93%, he dropped that one game in 2016, and his 2015 win was NZ's first since 2011.. the longest drought they'd seen.
What's become extensively clear is the biggest issues for NZ under Foster has been the breakdown, set-piece, and winning the contact when carrying.
Crucially, these are 3 areas that Razor and Jason Ryan hold key expertise in.
Razor being a breakdown & ruck specialist and Ryan with our set-pieces.
It's time to finally implement some remedies, the meaningful ones.
They got smashed by Ireland then turned around and burgled a win against Wales with a last minute Jordie Barrett penalty.
Now this was five years ago so no one should hold it too much against him, but he obviously doesn't have some midas touch if we are struggling to put away Wales and Ireland at age group level with him at the helm.
For me success at domestic or Super Rugby level is the price of admission to be considered as AB coach, but only that. One SR title is as good as five to me. More interested in breadth of experience.
What was Shane Warne's sledge on Monty Panesar? He hasn't played thirty tests, he has played the same test thirty times. There is a bit of that with Robertson as there was with Deans.
They beat Wales 71–12 in their following match.
I've heard accounts from his acquaintances, current and former players, Razor is considered a rugby genius by those who know him personally. Meanwhile, you're mindlessly speculating on the internet. Former All Blacks, who were coached by the very best (Henry, Deans, Hansen) and rate Robertson significantly higher than those listed. Razor is considered Wayne Smith's equal among the players I have talked with.
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@rotated said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p I'd be happy for Razor to get the top job because of his energy, enthusiasm and ability to get the very best out of his players, but with a heavyweight, experienced Assistant (Smith, Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Gatland, even Deans or Mitchell).
Yeah, Razor is an excellent coach & would do a really good job as head coach for the AB's - he has good rugby nous, so certainly wouldn't need to rely heavily on a very experienced coaching assistant - it's not vital if hasn't coached another country overseas, also the bloke is in his mid to late 40's & has won 4 or 5 Super Rugby titles... NZ Super Rugby is based on a really fast paced game, the same style the ABs play, so with all his experience as a Super Rugby coach he's the type of bloke we need, would have liked a Robertson/Brown combo, would be a top mix as one use to play in the forwards & the other in the backs.
Where does this confidence come from? With Smith, Henry, Hansen, Jones, Gatland, McKenzie, Wyllie, Hart and Deans (whichever job you count) shit hit the fan during their first international appointment. Why would Razor be any different and things go to custard like his second campaign with the U20s?
Also why are we so sure that he isn't going to follow the trend of most (but not all) Crusaders/Canterbury coaches having major issues once moving to a different environment?
I'm in favour of a Razor appointment in the style of Rassie, Cheika or Mitch given where we are in the cycle. He is well suited to shake things up and will improve the side in the short term. But we have to be realistic that over the medium to long term the odds are against him.
International Head Coach is very different from even top Club/Provincial/SR coaching.
Selection, lack of access to players, expectations, man-management, crazy levels of politics and also mind-games?Henry, Hansen, Smith, Eddie Jones all went through that. Schmidt too now. Failing is part of learning
I'd love to see Scott Robertson as AB coach downstream but see prior international experience as hugely useful
