All Blacks 2021
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i'll add, i did rate him and think he could do a shift at 12, Fozzie has shown he's happy to use crash ball at 12, he tried to get Goodhue to do it in 2020 and even tried bringing bridge in from the wing to do it last year...Laumape would be much better than either of them....but i think he's a long way from the missing link between the AB and winning everything
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@bovidae said in All Blacks 2021:
How has Laumape being playing in France? I had read he has been fairly ordinary, so not really an endorsement that he was the answer for the ABs.
I've seen a few games he played, ho going ok without setting the place on fire.
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@bovidae said in All Blacks 2021:
How has Laumape being playing in France? I had read he has been fairly ordinary, so not really an endorsement that he was the answer for the ABs.
Shock as ax-AB goes to France to chase cash but stinks out the joint
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Key attributes of the ideal AB coach now, a personal view. What are we missing?
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Experience: Intenational Head Coach previously and:
-- The ability to assemble and retain a the best coaching team with innovative thinkers/thinking within that (ego management a big part)
-- Proven record of demonstrated & progressive success, interspersed with failure and self-learning (aka a winner with battle scars, failing upwards)
-- Almost unlimited ambition (keeps moving on and up) tempered with personal humility
-- Zero complacency. Just frikken' zero
-- Anyone who fancies a "Director of Rugby role" anywhere/any level has lost their ambition/edge and is disqualified (looking at you, Warren!)
-- Can manage upwards, so prior NZR trust/connections/smooching DO help
-- Self confidence to develop an Assistant as their potential successor, knows when to move on -
Tactically astute, with a personal vision for how he wants the team to play
-- Visionary not reactive
-- Willingness to innovate and lose in a healthy way for a bit (when innovating)
-- Tactically flexible for the big games
-- Pick the right players and to match tactics, not just pick the "best players"
-- Ruthless, knows when to drop players regardless of seniority / pay-grade to make the point
-- Actions match words/vision => team selection
-- Player-management ... who needs a kick-up-the ass? Who won't respond to that?
-- "Lucky"
... sorry but it's SO true imo
Potentials: Schmid, Joseph, Rennie (won't happen ... but I rate him)
Close but no cigar: Eddie Jones (won't happen, wrong guy for the AB setup mainly based on being a lone-wolf operator, witness the revolving gate on Assistants plus total lack an England successor despite it being a stated goal a few year back)
Potential, but not yet: Scott Robertson - lack of international international experience, lack of "failing upwards" (yet, but it's part of growing)
Probably not: Warren G (think he's lot his hands-on edge and ambition. Time will tell)
Currently -
- Schmid ticks the most boxes, but if he has the ambition is tbd?
- Joseph might be able to bring the best coaching team if he can can manage his and all the egos, so tbd?
- Status quo - Fozzie always seems to have few standouts apart from his NZR connections and managing upwards. Maybe man-management too as he seems a nice bloke at a personal level
** My views may not represent TSF "consensus"!
Thoughts?
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks 2021:
Summary: Key attributes of the ideal AB coach now, a personal view. What are we missing?
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Experience: Intenational Head Coach previously and:
-- The ability to assemble and retain a the best coaching team with innovative thinkers/thinking within that (ego management a big part)
-- Proven record of demonstrated & progressive success, interspersed with failure and self-learning (aka a winner with battle scars, failing upwards)
-- Almost unlimited ambition (keeps moving on and up) tempered with personal humility
-- Zero complacency. Just frikken' zero
-- Anyone who fancies a "Director of Rugby role" anywhere/any level has lost their ambition/edge and is disqualified (looking at you, Warren!)
-- Can manage upwards, so prior NZR trust/connections/smooching DO help
-- Self confidence to develop an Assistant as their potential successor, knows when to move on -
Tactically astute, with a personal vision for how he wants the team to play
-- Visionary not reactive
-- Willingness to innovate and lose in a healthy way for a bit (when innovating)
-- Tactically flexible for the big games
-- Pick the right players and to match tactics, not just pick the "best players"
-- Ruthless, knows when to drop players regardless of seniority / pay-grade to make the point
-- Actions match words/vision => team selection
-- Player-management ... who needs a kick-up-the ass? Who won't respond to that?
-- "Lucky" ... sorry but it's SO true imo
Potentials: Schmid, Joseph, Rennie (won't happen ... but I rate him)
Close but no cigar: Eddie Jones (won't happen, wrong guy for the AB setup mainly based on being a lone-wolf operator, witness the revolving gate on Assistants plus total lack an England successor despite it being a stated goal a few year back)
Potential, but not yet: Scott Robertson - lack of international international experience, lack of "failing upwards" (yet, but it's part of growing)
Probably not: Warren G (think he's lot his hands-on edge and ambition. Time will tell)
Currently -
- Schmid ticks the most boxes, but if he has the ambition is tbd?
- Joseph might be able to bring the best coaching team if he can can manage his and all the egos, so tbd?
- Status quo - Fozzie always seems to have few standouts apart from his NZR connections and managing upwards. Maybe man-management too as he seems a nice bloke at a personal level
** My views may not represent TSF "consensus"!
Thoughts?
Wouldn't disagree with any of your points at all really LnP, I do think any top coach has to also work WITH players, and not just be boss. For all the talk about tactics etc, most top coaches don't set the tactics for games, usually is set quite a bit by senior players in team. One of reasons for 'Captain's' run day before test etc, the players going through the things they need to run through for their game plans.
I like the thought that AB coaches have experience overseas, and also like to see them prove they can improve a teams performances at different levels.
I will be honest and have never sat down with any of coaches and (apart from having a chat to Jamie Joseph over a beer as he started his coaching career) and so not real sure of their thoughts and plans.
Like the look of Schmidt, though he maybe just the coach of moment because he just got on selection panel, but regardless he has success as coaching overseas etc so could be worth a shout. Also we know NZR (and even Foster himself) have tried to get him involved, so that speaks volumes to me.
JJ, I like what he has done with different teams , including Japan, and like he has taken teams (including Highlanders) and reall improved them.
Fozzie , I not real sure about either way, I have heard people that have worked with him say he pretty good, and of course have read why plenty of experts on forums say why he shouldn't be doing job.
Wonder about Rennie, has some success with U20s and Chiefs (while Wayne Smith was asst), have whanau that were in his squads etc and they speak well of him.
Razor as yu say really needs more experience I think, just to show he coach apart from Canterbury etc , where he doing bloody good job, but also is part of probably best run Super franchise, which helps I know.
Others I would like to see considered at Assst level at least are the likes of Rangi MacDonald, Tony Brown, and perhaps at some stage Jono Gibbes.
That just off top of my head, but can guarantee that anyone who selects the coaches will have done a lot more diligent checking and interviewing than anyone posting on rugby forums, and know what is involved in coaching at higher levels etc, so generally will bow to their knowledge. -
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@dan54 maybe I'm giving NZR more credit than they're due (based on recent evidence anyway) but I have some idea how large orgs think, so my gut feel is Schmidt has been parachuted in as an 'insider' option. But without any guarantees made, unlike the way 2019 seemed to work. He's obviously kept excellent NZR relations as he turned down an Assistant role previously and yet is back in there, it's unlikely to be random imo
But unlike last round, looks like it will be a proper competition for the AB Head Coach role after the next RwC, which I'd put my money on France to win btw
I always bear in mind even top international HCs 'disappoint' eventually on their first gig ... Henry, Hansen, Eddie Jones etc. It's that crazy/unfulfilled ambition that keeps them learning and want the next level up. I thought Gatland had it too, now feel his may have been quenched - not by Wales, but by his overall Lions success
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
I don't think Laumape was ever hard done by, he got 15 tests, and they weren't in a row, he never in any tests I saw looked like he would be a dominant force at test level. He was still there or there abouts when he decided he wanted the money, so don't know why anyone is even worrying about him. Even at Super level generally he was a good player, but only looked 'real good' on odd occasion. I personally think Tupaea to me looks a better prospect, as he seems to have a better all round game.
In saying that I thought Havili was bloody good and perhaps his start faded a little during the test season, but I still haven't given up on him yet either.I didn't say his 15 tests were in a row - it's because he was in & out of the team he wasn't able to get much flow going in his game, he needed to play a few matches in a row to get a combo going with either ALB or Goodue at the time, therefore he would've performed better consistently etc, at times he definitely showed how good he can be... ALB & Goodhue are never going to add much attacking wise, both of them lack gas as well.
Tupaea doesn't seem to have much to his game other than smashing the ball up the guts - Havili did play very well in some of those matches for the Crusaders, but hardly fired a shot in the tests, because he was a fullback he adds good pace & a kicking game in the midfield, which are always really good assets for midfielders to have... so would probably have him as one of our midfielders & play him at 13, because the 2nd-five position is closer to the scrums & mauls where most of the traffic is, need that bigger stronger bloke in that position that can consistently get us over the advantage line.
The Conrad Smith/Nonu combo would have to be the best midfield the ABs have had... the balance was great, Nonu was bigger, Smith smaller who also played a big part in organizing the backline on defence & attack, also another big plus was they played together for yonks for their Province, in super Rugby & in tests.
Can see Havili playing a big part in organizing our backline too. -
@kiwibloke Nonu, Smith,Mauger, McAllister, Umaga were all bounced around our midfield, i think it was 25 tests in a row where a different combo started before the Nonu-Smith one became THE one.
I think if Laumape really wanted it, he could have pressed on, given he and Nonu had similar starts to thier AB careers, although Nonu was 5 or 6 years younger at same point i think.
By the same token, I don't think Laumape had the same potential and therefore upward trajectory Nonu had, where he pretty much ended at the peak of 12 play, and now was probably the best time for him to cash up.
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@l_n_p I'd be happy for Razor to get the top job because of his energy, enthusiasm and ability to get the very best out of his players, but with a heavyweight, experienced Assistant (Smith, Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Gatland, even Deans or Mitchell).
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke Nonu, Smith,Mauger, McAllister, Umaga were all bounced around our midfield, i think it was 25 tests in a row where a different combo started before the Nonu-Smith one became THE one.
I think if Laumape really wanted it, he could have pressed on, given he and Nonu had similar starts to thier AB careers, although Nonu was 5 or 6 years younger at same point i think.
By the same token, I don't think Laumape had the same potential and therefore upward trajectory Nonu had, where he pretty much ended at the peak of 12 play, and now was probably the best time for him to cash up.
My point is though you find your best midfield combo by giving them at least 5 or 6 tests in a row... Laumape didn't really get that chance.
Both Nonu & Laumape have very similar skills sets, also both are short & built like tanks, giving them a low center of gravity, so they're both very effective at getting over the Advantage line... one skill that Nonu has that Laumape or any other midfielder in NZ or overseas that I can think of now or in the past don't have is that brilliant long flat bullet pass he executed with excellent accuracy.
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@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke Nonu, Smith,Mauger, McAllister, Umaga were all bounced around our midfield, i think it was 25 tests in a row where a different combo started before the Nonu-Smith one became THE one.
I think if Laumape really wanted it, he could have pressed on, given he and Nonu had similar starts to thier AB careers, although Nonu was 5 or 6 years younger at same point i think.
By the same token, I don't think Laumape had the same potential and therefore upward trajectory Nonu had, where he pretty much ended at the peak of 12 play, and now was probably the best time for him to cash up.
My point is though you find your best midfield combo by giving them at least 5 or 6 tests in a row... Laumape didn't really get that chance.
Both Nonu & Laumape have very similar skills sets, also both are short & built like tanks, giving them a low center of gravity, so they're both very effective at getting over the Advantage line... one skill that Nonu has that Laumape or any other midfielder in NZ or overseas that I can think of now or in the past don't have is that brilliant long flat bullet pass he executed with excellent accuracy.
Nonu isn’t that short. Very wide though…..
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@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
My point is though you find your best midfield combo by giving them at least 5 or 6 tests in a row... Laumape didn't really get that chance.
well in the early years Nonu didnt get 5 or 6 in a row either was my point, look how he turned out.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
Loooool
Here's a new one
Henry was a shit coach but Laumape was the answer at 12 and an asset we needed to keep.
Keep delivering Fern
It's getting better. Havili is apparently the answer at 13.
That's not getting started on the Laumape (5'7", 105 kgs) versus Nonu (6', 108kgs) comparisons.
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@sparky said in All Blacks 2021:
@l_n_p I'd be happy for Razor to get the top job because of his energy, enthusiasm and ability to get the very best out of his players, but with a heavyweight, experienced Assistant (Smith, Rennie, Joseph, Schmidt, Gatland, even Deans or Mitchell).
Yeah, Razor is an excellent coach & would do a really good job as head coach for the AB's - he has good rugby nous, so certainly wouldn't need to rely heavily on a very experienced coaching assistant - it's not vital if hasn't coached another country overseas, also the bloke is in his mid to late 40's & has won 4 or 5 Super Rugby titles... NZ Super Rugby is based on a really fast paced game, the same style the ABs play, so with all his experience as a Super Rugby coach he's the type of bloke we need, would have liked a Robertson/Brown combo, would be a top mix as one use to play in the forwards & the other in the backs.
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@mn5 said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke Nonu, Smith,Mauger, McAllister, Umaga were all bounced around our midfield, i think it was 25 tests in a row where a different combo started before the Nonu-Smith one became THE one.
I think if Laumape really wanted it, he could have pressed on, given he and Nonu had similar starts to thier AB careers, although Nonu was 5 or 6 years younger at same point i think.
By the same token, I don't think Laumape had the same potential and therefore upward trajectory Nonu had, where he pretty much ended at the peak of 12 play, and now was probably the best time for him to cash up.
My point is though you find your best midfield combo by giving them at least 5 or 6 tests in a row... Laumape didn't really get that chance.
Both Nonu & Laumape have very similar skills sets, also both are short & built like tanks, giving them a low center of gravity, so they're both very effective at getting over the Advantage line... one skill that Nonu has that Laumape or any other midfielder in NZ or overseas that I can think of now or in the past don't have is that brilliant long flat bullet pass he executed with excellent accuracy.
Nonu isn’t that short. Very wide though…..
He's a bit taller than Laumape & a bit heavier than him, but neither one of them are tall either, they both have similar body shapes, built like tanks.
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@taniwharugby yep the players that impress me are the ones who stick with it, the players we need are not ones who pull the pin! I also didn't really think Laumape really clicked with anyone at the Canes, with plenty of starts. Apart from a few times he really didn't dominate at that level either. He wasn't poor by any means, but probably come on as much as I had thought he would!
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
Loooool
Here's a new one
Henry was a shit coach but Laumape was the answer at 12 and an asset we needed to keep.
Keep delivering Fern
It's getting better. Havili is apparently the answer at 13.
That's not getting started on the Laumape (5'7", 105 kgs) versus Nonu (6', 108kgs) comparisons.
Who would you have at 13 then ? Rieko Ioane certainly isn't the answer, he gets caught out position every time he plays in the midfield, he tends to drift across to the wing most of the time, when he has performed well starting in the midfield it's always when he's attacked down the flanks... put him back on the wings where he belongs, why the hell would anyone want play one of the fastest wingers in the world out of position anyway ?
L & N are not that tall compared to SBWs as a midfielder, think he was about 6'5'' he didn't break the advantage line up the guts as much them because they have a lower centre of gravity.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@taniwharugby yep the players that impress me are the ones who stick with it, the players we need are not ones who pull the pin! I also didn't really think Laumape really clicked with anyone at the Canes, with plenty of starts. Apart from a few times he really didn't dominate at that level either. He wasn't poor by any means, but probably come on as much as I had thought he would!
Cut him some slack as he had the impediment of some very ordinary first fives, led by JGB, to try to overcome.
