All Blacks vs Wales Test #2

Bovidae

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Chris B." data-cid="589777" data-time="1466328272">
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Anyone else find it slightly surprising to find Dagg and Ben Smith playing their 50th tests together - and that Israel is two years younger than Ben?
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Smith was only a peripheral AB in 2009-11 but has been a regular since 2012. Dagg was in the starting XV almost from his debut in 2010 until last year. In many ways their careers have been the inverse of eachother. 
 
Cruden and Barrett are on track to play their 50th tests at a similar time next year.

Wreck Diver

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="westcoastie" data-cid="589699" data-time="1466311086">
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<img src="http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/public/style_images/master/attachicon.gif" alt="attachicon.gif"><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=2040'>fwd pass.jpg</a>
 
Seems pretty clear that 1st Welsh try was forward. Even without my crude photoshopping skills, allowing for approximations of where the ball was released and received, it seems forward. 
 
Has there been much conversation on this? 
To the naked eye it looks forward. Is Wayne Barnes running that near touch-line. 
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Look who the touch judge is?

DMX

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bovidae" data-cid="589788" data-time="1466331876">Smith was only a peripheral AB in 2009-11 but has been a regular since 2012. Dagg was in the starting XV almost from his debut in 2010 until last year. In many ways their careers have been the inverse of eachother. 
 
Cruden and Barrett are on track to play their 50th tests at a similar time next year.</blockquote>
 
Peripheral in 2012 as well despite being for super Full-back 2011-2012.

nzzp

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="589775" data-time="1466327737">
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I think Nonu and Conrad laid the blueprint with a 12 that can straighten the attack with a strong running game and a 13 that is very adept at linking with the outsides, making good decisions on when to pass etc. As it was by the end of their careers Nonu developed an outstanding linking game and Conrad greatly improved his ability to straighten the attack, making them the best 12-13 combo of all time, but I think the above blueprint is still the most effective. Which is why I far prefer Crotty at 13 with a more powerful ball runner inside him. He's a very good decision maker on both attack and defense, but he doesn't have such a dominant running game. I'd really like to see Fekitoa moved to 12 where we can use him for crash ball while he fine tunes the rest of his game. Defensively he will have more support with Cruds and Crotty either side of him telling him where to be as well.
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Don't forget how important a physical 12 is to support the 10. Nonu offered his 10s a crash ball bailout option if taking to the line wasn't working, and freed them up to reset for the next play. By the end of his career, Nonu had gone from a fast phyiscal player (who started on the wing for teh ABs remember), to the consumate 12
- physical
- skilled
- kicking capability
- defensive rock
- sublime passing game and distribution which (I reckon) turned into one of his most potent strengths
 
 
asking for all that from new players is too much. Nonu was just sensational.
 
 
 
Don't forget how he started his career, too. After the series vs Ireland in the mid 2000's, where he brutally missed BOD, many people said he'll never play for the ABs again. I couldn't disagree - looked flaky. Good coaches turn that around - he could have derailed, but instead went on to be one of the great 12s of all time.

MiketheSnow

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="pooler fan" data-cid="589394" data-time="1466242797">
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Some good rugby played by both sides but Wales fell apart a little in defence in that 2nd half. 
Turning point was around the 50 minute mark when Naholo got away with a blatant yellow, a then that Warburton interception & Faletau dropped pass with the tryline beckoning. NZ then broke down field to score - a real 14 point turnaround. 
NZ irresistible at times, BB is a wonderful footballer as is Ben Smith & Dagg - these guys create space out of nothing. Fabulous players.
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Well done NZ. Another convincing win despite the late flurry from Wales.
 
Once again quicker to react and take advantage of opportunities.
 
Disappointing that Naholo didn't get a sit down for either/both offences.
 
And hat off to Patchell. Questioned his selection, but proved me wrong.

Immenso Rapido

Watching live at stadium I thought Faletau just had to catch it and he was in, 17-10 to Wales. Watching a replay on the telly the next day I was surprised to see he was still 40 out, isolated, and surrounded by faster defenders 
Another thing I noticed live and I was pretty much in line with from end on. When Petper stopped the game when the ball was passed over the prone Cruden - Wales had a 3 on 1.

nzzp

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MiketheSnow" data-cid="589813" data-time="1466365417">
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Disappointing that Naholo didn't get a sit down 
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Question for Mike and others (and genuinely not trolling) - what difference do you see between the first Naholo/Williams collision, and the second Naholo/Williams collision?
 
I'm comfortable with both being ruled as penalties at worst, as they are two players contesting the ball in the air. However, that's not how these get ruled - basically if you are first off the ground, you are protected. Modern game, but seems uncertain - Stander got a red card for a late jump, and I recall Jared Payne copping a red for something fairly innocuous

nzzp

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nzzp" data-cid="589818" data-time="1466366579">
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Question for Mike and others (and genuinely not trolling) - what difference do you see between the first Naholo/Williams collision, and the second Naholo/Williams collision?
 
I'm comfortable with both being ruled as penalties at worst, as they are two players contesting the ball in the air. However, that's not how these get ruled - basically if you are first off the ground, you are protected. Modern game, but seems uncertain - Stander got a red card for a late jump, and I recall Jared Payne copping a red for something fairly innocuous 
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Found a link to the Stander referee commentary
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.sareferees.com/News/law-discussion-standeracutes-red/2830674/'>http://www.sareferees.com/News/law-discussion-standeracutes-red/2830674/</a>

MiketheSnow

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nzzp" data-cid="589818" data-time="1466366579">
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Question for Mike and others (and genuinely not trolling) - what difference do you see between the first Naholo/Williams collision, and the second Naholo/Williams collision?
 
I'm comfortable with both being ruled as penalties at worst, as they are two players contesting the ball in the air. However, that's not how these get ruled - basically if you are first off the ground, you are protected. Modern game, but seems uncertain - Stander got a red card for a late jump, and I recall Jared Payne copping a red for something fairly innocuous 
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Apples and oranges no?
 
First Naholo/Williams collision saw both men in the air attempting to fairly contest the ball. Once Williams got there first, whether by design or accident (the latter IMHO) Naholo made contact in the air with a player in possession (Williams). Penalty, yellow card was the call IMHO.
 
Second Naholo/Williams collision saw Naholo htting Williams after he had kicked the ball. In my opinion no tackle was attempted and Naholo hit Williams late and with the shoulder. Penalty, yellow card was the call IMHO.
 
And to even things up, if Naholo had been yellow carded for collision 1 then Patchell should have been yellow carded later in the match for being second to the ball.

taniwharugby

he is talking about the 2 air collisions being seen differently but the ref, whereas they were both very similar; the shoulder charge shoulda seen yellow.
 
I guess the old sliding doors, had Naholo gone for the 1st one, neither of the other 2 woulda happened.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="589815" data-time="1466365842">
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Watching livestock stadium I thought Faletau just had to catch it and he was in, 17-10 to Wales. Watching a replay on the telly the next day I was surprised to see he was still 40 out, isolated, and surrounded by faster defenders 
Another thing I noticed live and I was pretty much in line with from end on. When Petper stopped the game when the ball was passed over the prone Cruden - Wales had a 3 on 1.
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Speaking of weird views of matches when Dagg was chasing the Welshman (can't remember which one) across the field who scored I was wondering why (i.e. hurling abuse at him) Dagg didn't just thump him - then they showed the overhead shot and he was clearly too far away but with another couple of metres he likely would have got him.

kiwiinmelb

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MiketheSnow" data-cid="589825" data-time="1466371237">
Apples and oranges no? 
First Naholo/Williams collision saw both men in the air attempting to fairly contest the ball. Once Williams got there first, whether by design or accident (the latter IMHO) Naholo made contact in the air with a player in possession (Williams). Penalty, yellow card was the call IMHO. 
Second Naholo/Williams collision saw Naholo htting Williams after he had kicked the ball. In my opinion no tackle was attempted and Naholo hit Williams late and with the shoulder. Penalty, yellow card was the call IMHO. 
And to even things up, if Naholo had been yellow carded for collision 1 then Patchell should have been yellow carded later in the match for being second to the ball.</blockquote>
 
First one , I think naholos was line ball ( but I need to see a rule book ) he was in the air with eyes on the ball too , At what point does he pull out when he is fixed on the ball and isn't aware someone is going to get to it first . 
They are the tough ones , when it looks dangerous but isn't deliberate

nzzp

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MiketheSnow" data-cid="589825" data-time="1466371237">
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Apples and oranges no?
...
And to even things up, if Naholo had been yellow carded for collision 1 then Patchell should have been yellow carded later in the match for being second to the ball.
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Sorry, my bad. I meant to compare Naholo/Williams with Patchell/Naholo.
 
The shoulder check after the kick was marginally later, and (I think) was penalised. That whole thing is farked -- if you don't use your arms, yellow, if you use your arms, yellow, if WFB is refereeing, definite yellow no matter what :)
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="kiwiinmelb" data-cid="589837" data-time="1466376419">
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At what point does he pull out when he is fixed on the ball and isn't aware someone is going to get to it first .
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Yeah, this is the thing I'm struggling with. How the hell can you pull out, and how the hell do you know when the other guy jumps? How late does your takeoff have to be before it's your fault. What if you go up first and get there second? It's all just a bit farked up, so much inconsistency and uncertainty. Remember this is all going on at full speed with fatigued players in test matches.
 
Not saying I have solutions, just that dishing yellows for mis-timings seems rough. The Irish agree with me :)

Toddy

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://haka.co.nz/'>http://haka.co.nz/</a>
 
Nelson's stats are up for those who are interested. Ardie picking up his work rate from the 1st test and Cane doing the work of two men for froward ball carries.
 
Shows Crotty doing well defensively.

Tordah

the whole penalising jumpers disaster is even worse when you consider that basically the Springboks whole gameplan in 2009/10 consisted of chasers just jumping into the catchers, pretending they were going for the ball.
Still liked that better than the way it's refereed now.
 
 
This situation:
High kick by team B goes up, fullback team A gets to the position where it's probably going to land, stands there, ready to catch. Winger team B races to where it's going to land, jumps up, tumbles over the outstretched arm of fullback team A, lands on his head and dies (as Liam Williams apparentl did, that play-acting fluffybunny). They're going to red card fullback A for standing there, arms outstretched because fullback B jumped?

antipodean

I've said it a number of times, the current application of the law means you want to be higher than the other player. Otherwise you're placing yourself at the mercy of the dimwits who can't tell a forward pass, or when you lose 10m in territory and hand over possession that they shouldn't then call out "advantage over".

canefan

I don't think Naholo had any chance of catching the ball, he was miles away from it. But the contact was clumsy as opposed to malicious. The shoulder check on the other hand was definitely intentional

kiwiinmelb

I reckon he was catching it if Williams wasnt there 
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.worldrugbyvids.com/index.php/2016/06/19/wiliams-naholo-collision/'>http://www.worldrugbyvids.com/index.php/2016/06/19/wiliams-naholo-collision/</a>

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="kiwiinmelb" data-cid="590003" data-time="1466409543">
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I reckon he was catching it if Williams wasnt there 
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.worldrugbyvids.com/index.php/2016/06/19/wiliams-naholo-collision/'>http://www.worldrugbyvids.com/index.php/2016/06/19/wiliams-naholo-collision/</a>
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That's a bit like saying "he would have kicked the ball if X player's head wasn't there". Williams was there. He was there first and had actually caught the ball. Reckless from Naholo and lucky not to see yellow under the current interpretations - which, i admit are a mess.

Bones

That's hilarious. I reckon Barrett is a 100% goalkicker, it's just the posts don't move when he kicks it.
 
Plus, Wayne Barnes probably gets a pass for the AWJ try, not a forward pass as if the guy who passed it had kicked it....voila! Not a forward pass. :)

The Silver Fern

All Blacks vs Wales Test #2