All Blacks vs Wales Test #2

Immenso Rapido

Watching live at stadium I thought Faletau just had to catch it and he was in, 17-10 to Wales. Watching a replay on the telly the next day I was surprised to see he was still 40 out, isolated, and surrounded by faster defenders 
Another thing I noticed live and I was pretty much in line with from end on. When Petper stopped the game when the ball was passed over the prone Cruden - Wales had a 3 on 1.

nzzp

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MiketheSnow" data-cid="589813" data-time="1466365417">
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Disappointing that Naholo didn't get a sit down 
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Question for Mike and others (and genuinely not trolling) - what difference do you see between the first Naholo/Williams collision, and the second Naholo/Williams collision?
 
I'm comfortable with both being ruled as penalties at worst, as they are two players contesting the ball in the air. However, that's not how these get ruled - basically if you are first off the ground, you are protected. Modern game, but seems uncertain - Stander got a red card for a late jump, and I recall Jared Payne copping a red for something fairly innocuous

nzzp

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nzzp" data-cid="589818" data-time="1466366579">
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Question for Mike and others (and genuinely not trolling) - what difference do you see between the first Naholo/Williams collision, and the second Naholo/Williams collision?
 
I'm comfortable with both being ruled as penalties at worst, as they are two players contesting the ball in the air. However, that's not how these get ruled - basically if you are first off the ground, you are protected. Modern game, but seems uncertain - Stander got a red card for a late jump, and I recall Jared Payne copping a red for something fairly innocuous 
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Found a link to the Stander referee commentary
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.sareferees.com/News/law-discussion-standeracutes-red/2830674/'>http://www.sareferees.com/News/law-discussion-standeracutes-red/2830674/</a>

MiketheSnow

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nzzp" data-cid="589818" data-time="1466366579">
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Question for Mike and others (and genuinely not trolling) - what difference do you see between the first Naholo/Williams collision, and the second Naholo/Williams collision?
 
I'm comfortable with both being ruled as penalties at worst, as they are two players contesting the ball in the air. However, that's not how these get ruled - basically if you are first off the ground, you are protected. Modern game, but seems uncertain - Stander got a red card for a late jump, and I recall Jared Payne copping a red for something fairly innocuous 
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Apples and oranges no?
 
First Naholo/Williams collision saw both men in the air attempting to fairly contest the ball. Once Williams got there first, whether by design or accident (the latter IMHO) Naholo made contact in the air with a player in possession (Williams). Penalty, yellow card was the call IMHO.
 
Second Naholo/Williams collision saw Naholo htting Williams after he had kicked the ball. In my opinion no tackle was attempted and Naholo hit Williams late and with the shoulder. Penalty, yellow card was the call IMHO.
 
And to even things up, if Naholo had been yellow carded for collision 1 then Patchell should have been yellow carded later in the match for being second to the ball.

taniwharugby

he is talking about the 2 air collisions being seen differently but the ref, whereas they were both very similar; the shoulder charge shoulda seen yellow.
 
I guess the old sliding doors, had Naholo gone for the 1st one, neither of the other 2 woulda happened.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="589815" data-time="1466365842">
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Watching livestock stadium I thought Faletau just had to catch it and he was in, 17-10 to Wales. Watching a replay on the telly the next day I was surprised to see he was still 40 out, isolated, and surrounded by faster defenders 
Another thing I noticed live and I was pretty much in line with from end on. When Petper stopped the game when the ball was passed over the prone Cruden - Wales had a 3 on 1.
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Speaking of weird views of matches when Dagg was chasing the Welshman (can't remember which one) across the field who scored I was wondering why (i.e. hurling abuse at him) Dagg didn't just thump him - then they showed the overhead shot and he was clearly too far away but with another couple of metres he likely would have got him.

kiwiinmelb

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MiketheSnow" data-cid="589825" data-time="1466371237">
Apples and oranges no? 
First Naholo/Williams collision saw both men in the air attempting to fairly contest the ball. Once Williams got there first, whether by design or accident (the latter IMHO) Naholo made contact in the air with a player in possession (Williams). Penalty, yellow card was the call IMHO. 
Second Naholo/Williams collision saw Naholo htting Williams after he had kicked the ball. In my opinion no tackle was attempted and Naholo hit Williams late and with the shoulder. Penalty, yellow card was the call IMHO. 
And to even things up, if Naholo had been yellow carded for collision 1 then Patchell should have been yellow carded later in the match for being second to the ball.</blockquote>
 
First one , I think naholos was line ball ( but I need to see a rule book ) he was in the air with eyes on the ball too , At what point does he pull out when he is fixed on the ball and isn't aware someone is going to get to it first . 
They are the tough ones , when it looks dangerous but isn't deliberate

nzzp

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MiketheSnow" data-cid="589825" data-time="1466371237">
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Apples and oranges no?
...
And to even things up, if Naholo had been yellow carded for collision 1 then Patchell should have been yellow carded later in the match for being second to the ball.
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Sorry, my bad. I meant to compare Naholo/Williams with Patchell/Naholo.
 
The shoulder check after the kick was marginally later, and (I think) was penalised. That whole thing is farked -- if you don't use your arms, yellow, if you use your arms, yellow, if WFB is refereeing, definite yellow no matter what :)
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="kiwiinmelb" data-cid="589837" data-time="1466376419">
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At what point does he pull out when he is fixed on the ball and isn't aware someone is going to get to it first .
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Yeah, this is the thing I'm struggling with. How the hell can you pull out, and how the hell do you know when the other guy jumps? How late does your takeoff have to be before it's your fault. What if you go up first and get there second? It's all just a bit farked up, so much inconsistency and uncertainty. Remember this is all going on at full speed with fatigued players in test matches.
 
Not saying I have solutions, just that dishing yellows for mis-timings seems rough. The Irish agree with me :)

Toddy

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://haka.co.nz/'>http://haka.co.nz/</a>
 
Nelson's stats are up for those who are interested. Ardie picking up his work rate from the 1st test and Cane doing the work of two men for froward ball carries.
 
Shows Crotty doing well defensively.

Tordah

the whole penalising jumpers disaster is even worse when you consider that basically the Springboks whole gameplan in 2009/10 consisted of chasers just jumping into the catchers, pretending they were going for the ball.
Still liked that better than the way it's refereed now.
 
 
This situation:
High kick by team B goes up, fullback team A gets to the position where it's probably going to land, stands there, ready to catch. Winger team B races to where it's going to land, jumps up, tumbles over the outstretched arm of fullback team A, lands on his head and dies (as Liam Williams apparentl did, that play-acting fluffybunny). They're going to red card fullback A for standing there, arms outstretched because fullback B jumped?

antipodean

I've said it a number of times, the current application of the law means you want to be higher than the other player. Otherwise you're placing yourself at the mercy of the dimwits who can't tell a forward pass, or when you lose 10m in territory and hand over possession that they shouldn't then call out "advantage over".

canefan

I don't think Naholo had any chance of catching the ball, he was miles away from it. But the contact was clumsy as opposed to malicious. The shoulder check on the other hand was definitely intentional

kiwiinmelb

I reckon he was catching it if Williams wasnt there 
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.worldrugbyvids.com/index.php/2016/06/19/wiliams-naholo-collision/'>http://www.worldrugbyvids.com/index.php/2016/06/19/wiliams-naholo-collision/</a>

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="kiwiinmelb" data-cid="590003" data-time="1466409543">
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I reckon he was catching it if Williams wasnt there 
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.worldrugbyvids.com/index.php/2016/06/19/wiliams-naholo-collision/'>http://www.worldrugbyvids.com/index.php/2016/06/19/wiliams-naholo-collision/</a>
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That's a bit like saying "he would have kicked the ball if X player's head wasn't there". Williams was there. He was there first and had actually caught the ball. Reckless from Naholo and lucky not to see yellow under the current interpretations - which, i admit are a mess.

Bones

That's hilarious. I reckon Barrett is a 100% goalkicker, it's just the posts don't move when he kicks it.
 
Plus, Wayne Barnes probably gets a pass for the AWJ try, not a forward pass as if the guy who passed it had kicked it....voila! Not a forward pass. :)

gollum

Have we discussed the AB centre defencve, Cause Nonu gave a cracking example of what we are missing on the weekend -

kiwiinmelb

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="590005" data-time="1466410478">
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That's a bit like saying "he would have kicked the ball if X player's head wasn't there". Williams was there. He was there first and had actually caught the ball. Reckless from Naholo and lucky not to see yellow under the current interpretations - which, i admit are a mess.
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 I was replying to canefan who said he was miles from it and had no chance of catching it

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="kiwiinmelb" data-cid="590014" data-time="1466413517">
I was replying to canefan who said he was miles from it and had no chance of catching it </blockquote>He didn't have a chance to catch it, Williams was there in position and Naholo was late. I don't see why it matters if he could have caught it if Williams wasn't there because he was

kiwiinmelb

I guess it depends what we are debating , my point was I dont think it was intentional , 
 
He was running an angle that he thought he could catch it , if his eyes were on the ball only , he probably didnt see Williams untill it was too late , 
 
When williams caught it , his feet had already left the ground in his own attempt to catch it , 
 
Im not sure at what point he pulls out if he is looking at the ball only

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="590018" data-time="1466414895">
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He didn't have a chance to catch it, Williams was there in position and Naholo was late. I don't see why it matters if he could have caught it if Williams wasn't there because he was
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I agree, it doesn't.
 
Most guys now are taught to jump no matter what, so they jump even when they are far too late & have zero chance of actually contesting, its cynical & dangerous & should be pinged. The application is usually "did he have any chance of contesting? No? Penalty. In doing so did he put the other player at risk of serious injury (ie he landed on his head)? Yes? Yellow card."
 
If you listen to the ref mike that exactly the process he goes through (that may have been tough on NZ commentary with Marshall shouting "whoom-PA!" over the top & Nisbo saying "well, whats happened there? That doesn't look good, I wonder what the outcome of this will be" as the ref explains it all.)
 
Genuine 50/50's are not usually penalised, Naholo's was not a 50/50, he was late, had no chance & just auto-jumped because that what they get told in practice. The one later on was an actual 50/50.
 
In contrast Ben Smith regularly sees he won't get there in time to contest, checks his run makes the tackle the second the guy hits the deck & rolls him. McCaw used to do the same.

The Silver Fern

All Blacks vs Wales Test #2