All Blacks vs Argentina I
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season).
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
No there wasn’t.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
No there wasn’t.
Is that you Mr Ryan?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
You mean a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and know how to win comps? That sort of player?
No there wasn’t.
Is that you Mr Ryan?
No, I’m Steve Hansen. No, I’m actually Fozzie.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
I think my whole comment still stands and I don’t really see your argument. He is the best 6 in the team and has been replaced at 6 by someone who is a 6.5 and is only starting because he’s played in Razors teams previously. It’s a complete comfort pick and a guy who has already peaked. Finau has so much room to grow, why not grow him now and continue to get test match experience along the way? Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
- We lack an enforcer/big 6.
- Finau was dropped from the 23(not completely from the squad like you’re saying).
So the whole jumping at shadows thing… not really sure about that.
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
If only this Akira fellow was a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and knows how to be part of a winning team, he'd sound ideal!
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
If only this Akira fellow was a big tall 6 with AB experience who can take lineouts, bowl over players, tackle hard, and knows how to be part of a winning team, he'd sound ideal!
oh and bonus point if he picks fights with scrappy halfbacks..
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@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@Landers92 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
All blacks lacked an enforcer/big ball carrier BIG TIME. The closest thing we have to that is Finau, are we just going to give up on Finau after 2 tests against England? If so, what a joke. He’s finding his feet with the new coaching system just as much as anyone else and he deserves to be shown some more loyalty and belief there. A lot of people may not like it, but he’s the best 6 we have in the squad. The only true 6 too.
I think you are jumping at shadows here. If they wanted to drop him they had a chance to when they named the RC squad.
He’s still very young and i have no doubts are in the plans for the coaches. There were some signs in the England series that I think the coaches will keep working with in training and when that test opportunity comes again - and it will - he will be a better player for it.
We all knew blindside was going to be a concern heading into this season because there was not a ready made player to throw the keys too like we have at 7 with Papali’i (and Cane not being available to start the season). Hell we all held our collective breaths with Shannon sort of expecting the worst but hoping for the best of an unideal situation.
I think my whole comment still stands and I don’t really see your argument. He is the best 6 in the team and has been replaced at 6 by someone who is a 6.5 and is only starting because he’s played in Razors teams previously. It’s a complete comfort pick and a guy who has already peaked. Finau has so much room to grow, why not grow him now and continue to get test match experience along the way? Hell, Akira should be in there over Blackadder anyway.
- We lack an enforcer/big 6.
- Finau was dropped from the 23(not completely from the squad like you’re saying).
So the whole jumping at shadows thing… not really sure about that.
There’s no evidence to suggest that they have “given up after 2 tests”, so not sure why you suggest that.
It’s not unusual if history is anything to go by that new coaching set ups try different players to see where things are at. Happened under Mitchell, Henry, Hansen and Fozzie. Different styles of players were played in the same position.
I expect a bit of rotation as they find the best lineup, especially in the loose forwards given the number of loosies in the squad.
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I'm disappointed as anyone on here but some of the gossip and speculation in this thread is bs.
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I still haven't watched the game, but from looking at the stats, Paps seemed to have a very non-like-him game - I know he was subbed at 65 minutes, but he was well last in tackles for the loosies. It looks to me (from only looking at the stats), that we have two very similar 7s out there. Blackadder leads for tackles (by some distance) with stats that look very Sam Cane like (lots of tackles, lots of carries, not many metres) except for the three penalties.
It looks like all the running came from Ardie - according to ESPN he had 19 carries for 51 metres, and it looks like that is about the same as every other forward combined. I don't see why they picked supposed 'running' props but haven't used them. Williams (at least) is ready for the next step, let's go, we need more ball carrying.
WTF happened to Sititi? Stats say he was penalized 3 times in 15 minutes? Fucking ouch. I wonder if throwing a totally green kid into a game with 15 left when we are in shit is quite the method of bringing him along?
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Third quarter rewatch.
Tighties again good in lineouts and all but one maul. Both starting pack and replacement props generated some go forward. In particular, four or five pick 'n goes generated big metres before Telea try.
Three penalties which had a large element of luck generated all of Puma's 13 points in period.
First, Darry on the carry is tackled. The cleaner, Lomax, was delayed avoiding a previous tackler still on the ground. Darry's tackler was slow to roll, but made just enough effort to avoid Gardner penalising, and lets Matera in. Another day the clean is made or tackler caught not rolling away;
Second, the Niggles penalty for being bumped off by Pumas prop;
Third, Paps makes excellent covering tackle, but falls awkwardly and unable to roll away. Very similar to first of the penalties above but didn't go our way.Pumas deserve tremendous plaudits for their extraordinary skill in coverting three marginal penalties way out from our line into 13 points!!
Quite apart from the excellent goal kicks, Carreras also set up the maul try by landing the penalty punt 5m from AB goal line. An unconventional maul, which ABs clearly hadn't contemplated, and Pumas overloaded the gap between Lomax and Darry, who was defending the dummy jump by Puma 8.
13/13Ratima on at 56:30 and Ofa/Newell at 58.30. Immediaely DMac getting ball wider and quicker.
Also, at this juncture the forward pod 'screening' DMac starts to rumble and make short offloads, which worked well.Bad DMac missed penalty at 58:30.
At 59:30 classic Jordan break one out from ruck, and ABs right on Puma line before being called back for Ratima kick, which Gardner adjudged a knock on 'becuase he wasn't in control when his leg connected' [is that a Law?].
In summary, ABs had the better of about 15 of the 20 minutes, but the three penalties awarded to Pumas left the scoring 10-13 to Pumas.
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@pakman I can't find anything on needing to be in control of the ball to make a kick. But then again I can't find anything on what constitutes a lick either (looked to me like it glanced off just above the knee before the foot and I thought a kick was from below the knee).
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@Bones I'm pretty sure the knee or shin is a legal kick.
From first principles I thought propelling the ball forward, other than by a kick, only became a knock on if the ball touched something else, being the ground, another player, the posts or even the ref.
So if you, for example, caught the ball before it touched anything else it wasn't a knock on.
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@pakman on the former, I recall it coming up when Los did his off the knee chip and it got clarified after.
The latter, that was my understanding as well, don't recall anything about control, just the ball travelling forward and hitting something other than you before you can regain.
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I agree with the thrust of what Chris Jones was saying here. What was remarkable about the first Test was the fragility of the All Blacks and seeing players with many Test caps get so badly wrong what should be basic skills for professional rugby players to execute. Slapdash.
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@pakman said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
which Gardner adjudged a knock on 'becuase he wasn't in control when his leg connected' [is that a Law?].
My understanding it is
Players can't drop a ball (knock forward) and kick it and claim it was a kick. He must be in control of the ball before the kick
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Argentina I:
@pakman I can't find anything on needing to be in control of the ball to make a kick. But then again I can't find anything on what constitutes a lick either (looked to me like it glanced off just above the knee before the foot and I thought a kick was from below the knee).
But the lost forward can't be cancelled out by kicking it. I think it can if you catch it though. But this is based on the refs rulings only
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By definition, if you lose the ball forward, you actually need to catch it before doing anything else. ("When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.")
So in this instance, Ratima loses the ball forward and because he doesn't catch it before kicking it, it's a knock on.
You don't see it always ruled correctly but the same thing applies if a player loses the ball forward then manages to bat it backwards before it hits the ground - by the letter of the law, that's still a knock on, even if it's ultimately hit the ground behind where it was batted back from.
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Yes I thought the ref was clear on how he lost control so could not kick it without regathering first.
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