All Blacks vs Wales

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="sparky" data-cid="584069" data-time="1464597918">
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I asked questions about Cruden's defence. I never said I'd prefer to start with Sopoaga.
 
Cruden Vs Sopoaga Vs Barrett is an interesting problem to have. Cruden has the better passing game, Sopoaga the better goal-kicking, Barrett has the better running game. All three have excellent short kicking games. Cruden and Barrett have been there and done in RWC knock outs. Sopoaga showed a great temperament in the cauldron of Ellis Park last year. The coaches have given very little away about the pecking order of the three so far.
 
Defence is the doubt about all three, especially in a post-McCaw world.
 
For what it's worth, I think Barrett is the best player of the three and has the most potential. I'm just not convinced he's a natural number 10, seems more of a three-quarter than a five-eight.
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You are missing a key attribute of a 10. That of being the play director and spotter of opportunities. Cruden and Sopoaga have it over BB in that regard. Sopoaga excellent playing to a plan, Cruden moreso in spotting opportunities.

Catogrande

Lydiate is now out of the tour with a shoulder injury he picked up in the loss to England. Warburton did not play due to injury but will tour and Tipuric is also out longer term. Lydiate is being replaced by the uncapped Ellis Jenkins, a natural open side.

sparky

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="584072" data-time="1464598311">
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You are missing a key attribute of a 10. That of being the play director and spotter of opportunities. Cruden and Sopoaga have it over BB in that regard. Sopoaga excellent playing to a plan, Cruden moreso in spotting opportunities.
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A very good point. That is sort of what I was alluding to in Beauden Barrett being not a natural ten. He isn't not the enforcer of coaches' game plan as first five like Sopoaga, Farrell, Sexton or Foley, but nor does he have the vision of a Carter or a Cruden. What he does have is an amazing set of skills, especially a brilliant running game.
 
So far under Steve Hansen, the All Blacks have been coached to play what's in front of them in broken play, Cruden does that wonderfully so I expect he'll be the first choice number 10 for now.

cgrant

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="pakman" data-cid="584059" data-time="1464595384">
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Interesting comments about the need to find replacement for Crockett, now 33. Expect EOYT will see one of Hames/Manu/Goodes get put through paces.
Not said openly by Shag, but I think selectors picked loosies with eyes on inevitable moving on of Kaino, also now 33. Dixon and Squire both seem to be in the big hit/powerful running style of a Kaino 6. Would also explain omission of Luatua, who has been excellent for Blues, but is the natural replacement for the skills of Read if, God forbid, he got injured.
Will be interesting how midfield shapes. Historic preference for power 12/ skiled 13 would argue for Fekitoa (12)/Crotty or Tamanivalu (12)/Ngatai -- the opposite of their usual roles (Fekitoa seems much more at home at 13).
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Hames ? He can't win a starting spot in the Chiefs XV and you see him as a FAB ? The Chiefs scrum started to suffer a lot against the Tahs when Graham and Yamashita were replaced. Maybe it was not entirely his fault but what did he show lately which could lead the selectors to pay attention to him ?
I think he is just not big enough for the job at the international level and his workate has nothing extraordinary. Edmunds and Goodes look more promising prospects IMO as they are strong scrummagers and offer much more in the loose. In a year or two, Hodgman could emerge as he has all the attributes to become a first class LHP.

MiketheSnow

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="584073" data-time="1464598475">
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Lydiate is now out of the tour with a shoulder injury he picked up in the loss to England. Warburton did not play due to injury but will tour and Tipuric is also out longer term. Lydiate is being replaced by the uncapped Ellis Jenkins, a natural open side.
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Warburton is expected to be fit for the 1st Test.
 
Tipuric is on long-term rest for concussion after leaving the field against Italy in the 6N.
 
James Davies, brother of centre Jonathan Davies, was not selected for the touring party but has been selected for the GB 7s training squad for the 2016 Olympics.
 
Ellis Jenkins has had a very good season with the Blues often playing 7 with Warburton at 6. He's a former Wales U-20 captain. Not the biggest but has very good technique over the ball.
 
If we have any hope of competing at the breakdown then I would start with Moriarty, Warburton, Faletau with Jenkins on the bench.

pooler fan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Provincial Stalwart" data-cid="583983" data-time="1464580935">I heard that Lydiate news from a workmate and Bovidae just confirmed it. So Wales' loose forward situation is looking pretty grim right? I'd be pleased to have any Taffs, and anyone up with the play, comment on this (or anyone with an ability to do internet research for that matter). 
The Telegraph website named these loose forwards as original selections for the tour: 
T Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons), J King (Ospreys), D Lydiate (Ospreys), R Moriarty (Gloucester), J Turnbull (Cardiff Blues), S Warburton (Cardiff Blues, capt). 
Take out Lydiate, and considering Warburton is still an injury concern I believe, then Wales is struggling. Lydiate started the England friendly at 7 I think, captaining the team. Seems Tipuric is also injured out of the series.</blockquote>
From a Welsh perspective I'd have preferred Lydiate to stay fit but the inclusion of Ellis Jenkins is just about the best news we could get. 
Yesterday was an accident waiting to happen given the matchday squad. Wales whole gameplan is reliant on winning collisions & turn-overs in the tackle area. Take Warburton out of that equation & it immediately became more difficult. To then shoe-horn Lydiate at 7 (it's a stretch these days to say he's quick enough for 6 never mind 7) without bench cover was suicidal. 
We spent the last 50 of that game with James King in the openside role, this is a guy who's been on form for the Ospreys at 8 but has spent most of his career at lock. This immediately gave the impetus to England to enjoy a free reign at the breakdown. 
Given England started with Haskell at 7 if we'd selected a "proper" openside we'd have enjoyed a regular supply of turn-over ball. To make it more annoying two of the best opensides in Wales this season have been Ellis Jenkins & James Davies - both overlooked by Gatland.

MiketheSnow

Well that was shitter than shit.
 
Worst display of basic skills I've seen in a decade at least. Defence was pathetic. <a class="" href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/justnotgoodenough?source=feed_text&story_id=10154226998628624">â€ª#â€Žjustnotgoodenoughâ€¬</a>
 
And I hope the World Rugby official who's marking the ref, touch judges, and TMO has run out of red pen.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="pooler fan" data-cid="584096" data-time="1464604133">
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.....Given England started with Haskell at 7 if we'd selected a "proper" openside we'd have enjoyed a regular supply of turn-over ball. To make it more annoying two of the best opensides in Wales this season have been Ellis Jenkins & James Davies - both overlooked by Gatland.
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That pretty much sums up England for the last ten years or so. You don't get any moaning rights on this issue unless you can show no selection of a 7 for at least five years.

pooler fan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="584099" data-time="1464604664">That pretty much sums up England for the last ten years or so. You don't get any moaning rights on this issue unless you can show no selection of a 7 for at least five years.</blockquote>
Very true, luckily for you guys the emergence of guys like Clifford can end that era once & for all.

Glath

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="cgrant" data-cid="584093" data-time="1464603121">
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Hames ? He can't win a starting spot in the Chiefs XV and you see him as a FAB ? The Chiefs scrum started to suffer a lot against the Tahs when Graham and Yamashita were replaced. Maybe it was not entirely his fault but what did he show lately which could lead the selectors to pay attention to him ?
I think he is just not big enough for the job at the international level and his workate has nothing extraordinary. Edmunds and Goodes look more promising prospects IMO as they are strong scrummagers and offer much more in the loose. In a year or two, Hodgman could emerge as he has all the attributes to become a first class LHP.
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Not sure whether Hames will be a FAB, but he is only playing this season because the Chiefs had a big run of injuries in the front row. He left the Highlanders to take a year off rugby to recover from injury.
 
Doubt he's playing at his best right now.

nostrildamus

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="583787" data-time="1464519468">
In my defense I did say I can't think of many. I'm tired...</blockquote>
 
Were the Whitlocks the only other recent brothers?

Gary

Owen and Ben Franks!

ACT Crusader

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Gary" data-cid="584126" data-time="1464615131">Owen and Ben Franks!</blockquote>
 
Mentioned about 120 posts ago bro [emoji3]

nostrildamus

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Gary" data-cid="584126" data-time="1464615131">
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Owen and Ben Franks!
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I meant apart from them, as I was replying under that. As you were.
Actually I do have a question, and that is when/if SBW returns that might affect selection at 10 (i.e. Cruden having more of a chance)..than say if Fekitoa was selected at 12 that still doesn't (?) tip the chances any more towards Sopoaga.

nzzp

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nostrildamus" data-cid="584111" data-time="1464608327">
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Were the Whitlocks the only other recent brothers?
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I'm late to this thread, but would it be Zinzan and Robin in the late 90's?

Dan54

or the Whettons?

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nostrildamus" data-cid="584111" data-time="1464608327">
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Were the Whitlocks the only other recent brothers?
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Laulalas and Gears, like the Whitelocks, did not play together and are the only ones that fall into the Hansen/Henry eta. The Maugers mentioned earlier were in the same 22 but Aaron didn't come off the bench.
 
After that you are back to the Bookes, Bachops, Coopers etc.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="584152" data-time="1464636976">
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Laulalas and Gears, like the Whitelocks, did not play together and are the only ones that fall into the Hansen/Henry eta. The Maugers mentioned earlier were in the same 22 but Aaron didn't come off the bench.
 
After that you are back to the Bookes, Bachops, Coopers etc.
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Wow, I never realized those two were brothers.........
 
The mighty Scots had two sets of brothers in the same backline as recently as five or six years ago when the Lamonts and Evans's were tearing up all before them ( I may have exaggerated that last bit....)
 
Interesting how few played together though, would be cool if Ardie and Julian managed this, looks a given within a couple of weeks. Rico was long gone by the time Hosea came on the scene if I recall correctly.

mariner4life

well, this is all very sedate really isn't it? The first AB squad of a new era, a few newbies replacing all-time greats, and the level of discussion barely gets above "meh"
 
Are we as AB supporters just more mature now? Have we become so sure of success we don't care who puts on the jersey? Or have the selectors and coaches built up such a level of goodwill we just trust that they are right? Or is it just that the selectors have done such a good job of bringing guys through we know that the first 23 are all proven test performers already?
 
There are a couple of selections that in the past would have at least some people blowing up, but even provincial rivalries can't generate any spite. I think Luatua is extremely hard done by, but then i think Liam Squire could be moulded into a weapon as well. I think Taminavalu is a bit rubbish, but has Moala really been playing better? Who the fuck is Franklin?
 
I think i miss selectorial shitfights.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="584193" data-time="1464650486">
<div>
well, this is all very sedate really isn't it? The first AB squad of a new era, a few newbies replacing all-time greats, and the level of discussion barely gets above "meh"
 
Are we as AB supporters just more mature now? Have we become so sure of success we don't care who puts on the jersey? Or have the selectors and coaches built up such a level of goodwill we just trust that they are right? Or is it just that the selectors have done such a good job of bringing guys through we know that the first 23 are all proven test performers already?
 
There are a couple of selections that in the past would have at least some people blowing up, but even provincial rivalries can't generate any spite. I think Luatua is extremely hard done by, but then i think Liam Squire could be moulded into a weapon as well. I think Taminavalu is a bit rubbish, but has Moala really been playing better? Who the fuck is Franklin?
 
I think i miss selectorial shitfights. 
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What is it that he brings to the table ? I must confess to not watching a single Highlanders game this year.

The Silver Fern

All Blacks vs Wales