All Blacks vs Wales

sparky

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="ACT Crusader" data-cid="584031" data-time="1464590755">I don't think Gatland is concerning himself one bit with who was left out of the AB squad.</blockquote>
 
He's going to be pretty busy coaching the Welsh defence that is for sure.

Crash

Sparky, I remember you had concerns about Cruden's defensive qualities and would prefer Sopoaga to start.
I wanted to add to that with the thought that Cruden may have peaked and has plateaued somewhat.
Lets face it , it's been a while since he has taken a closely fought game with high stakes by the scruff and really effected the outcome by taking ultimate control.
Yes the Chiefs have done pretty well with him, however at AB level I see more tread in Sopoaga, and BB is a jack-in-the-box who constantly surprises.
Cruden does have defensive frailties and more often than not the offence will target his weak inside shoulder these days. Don't get me wrong, he is quality, I just wonder about his longevity .

taniwharugby

dont think his defence has been exposed in black before? Everyone misses a sitter now and again I know, but for you to be a defensive liability you would be doing it over and over, which I thiink doesnt really apply to anyone in the ABs in recent times.
 
Although I guess that was with Nonu or SBW outside him....but as usual, I trust in Hansen and Co.

kiwiinmelb

Ive got a feeling , both will get starts in this series , 
 
I do think Cruden is number 1 in their eyes at this stage , but its not like Carter and then the rest , 
 
Lima could well be number 1 by the EOYT if he is good enough

pakman

Interesting comments about the need to find replacement for Crockett, now 33. Expect EOYT will see one of Hames/Manu/Goodes get put through paces.
Not said openly by Shag, but I think selectors picked loosies with eyes on inevitable moving on of Kaino, also now 33. Dixon and Squire both seem to be in the big hit/powerful running style of a Kaino 6. Would also explain omission of Luatua, who has been excellent for Blues, but is the natural replacement for the skills of Read if, God forbid, he got injured.
Will be interesting how midfield shapes. Historic preference for power 12/ skiled 13 would argue for Fekitoa (12)/Crotty or Tamanivalu (12)/Ngatai -- the opposite of their usual roles (Fekitoa seems much more at home at 13).

Bovidae

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crash" data-cid="584050" data-time="1464594180">
<div>
Sparky, I remember you had concerns about Cruden's defensive qualities and would prefer Sopoaga to start.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
In Sopoaga's only test start he missed 5 tackles.
 
It makes sense that both Cruden and Sopoaga will start over a 3-test series.

ACT Crusader

Fekitoa has been playing 12 for the Landers over the last few weeks and whilst that might be influenced by available personnel, I think it's where he will finish the season. 
Hansen used him at both 12 and 13 last year also. 
I don't think the coaches will be trying to replicate Nonu/Smith. They were both class players in their own right and when they paired with other players they adapted. We have seen in limited test game time of Crotty and Fekitoa and it's quite different. Add in two brand new faces and I hope people allow time rather than bemoan that they're not Rock or Snakey

No Quarter

I don't know if we have historically gone for a powerful 12, as Nonu was equally powerful and skillful. If he wasn't around who would have taken his place between 2008 - 2015?

sparky

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crash" data-cid="584050" data-time="1464594180">
<div>
Sparky, I remember you had concerns about Cruden's defensive qualities and would prefer Sopoaga to start.
I wanted to add to that with the thought that Cruden may have peaked and has plateaued somewhat.
Lets face it , it's been a while since he has taken a closely fought game with high stakes by the scruff and really effected the outcome by taking ultimate control.
Yes the Chiefs have done pretty well with him, however at AB level I see more tread in Sopoaga, and BB is a jack-in-the-box who constantly surprises.
Cruden does have defensive frailties and more often than not the offence will target his weak inside shoulder these days. Don't get me wrong, he is quality, I just wonder about his longevity . 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I asked questions about Cruden's defence. I never said I'd prefer to start with Sopoaga.
 
Cruden Vs Sopoaga Vs Barrett is an interesting problem to have. Cruden has the better passing game, Sopoaga the better goal-kicking, Barrett has the better running game. All three have excellent short kicking games. Cruden and Barrett have been there and done in RWC knock outs. Sopoaga showed a great temperament in the cauldron of Ellis Park last year. The coaches have given very little away about the pecking order of the three so far.
 
Defence is the doubt about all three, especially in a post-McCaw world.
 
For what it's worth, I think Barrett is the best player of the three and has the most potential. I'm just not convinced he's a natural number 10, seems more of a three-quarter than a five-eight.

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="sparky" data-cid="584069" data-time="1464597918">
<div>
I asked questions about Cruden's defence. I never said I'd prefer to start with Sopoaga.
 
Cruden Vs Sopoaga Vs Barrett is an interesting problem to have. Cruden has the better passing game, Sopoaga the better goal-kicking, Barrett has the better running game. All three have excellent short kicking games. Cruden and Barrett have been there and done in RWC knock outs. Sopoaga showed a great temperament in the cauldron of Ellis Park last year. The coaches have given very little away about the pecking order of the three so far.
 
Defence is the doubt about all three, especially in a post-McCaw world.
 
For what it's worth, I think Barrett is the best player of the three and has the most potential. I'm just not convinced he's a natural number 10, seems more of a three-quarter than a five-eight.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
You are missing a key attribute of a 10. That of being the play director and spotter of opportunities. Cruden and Sopoaga have it over BB in that regard. Sopoaga excellent playing to a plan, Cruden moreso in spotting opportunities.

Catogrande

Lydiate is now out of the tour with a shoulder injury he picked up in the loss to England. Warburton did not play due to injury but will tour and Tipuric is also out longer term. Lydiate is being replaced by the uncapped Ellis Jenkins, a natural open side.

sparky

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="584072" data-time="1464598311">
<div>
You are missing a key attribute of a 10. That of being the play director and spotter of opportunities. Cruden and Sopoaga have it over BB in that regard. Sopoaga excellent playing to a plan, Cruden moreso in spotting opportunities.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
A very good point. That is sort of what I was alluding to in Beauden Barrett being not a natural ten. He isn't not the enforcer of coaches' game plan as first five like Sopoaga, Farrell, Sexton or Foley, but nor does he have the vision of a Carter or a Cruden. What he does have is an amazing set of skills, especially a brilliant running game.
 
So far under Steve Hansen, the All Blacks have been coached to play what's in front of them in broken play, Cruden does that wonderfully so I expect he'll be the first choice number 10 for now.

cgrant

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="pakman" data-cid="584059" data-time="1464595384">
<div>
Interesting comments about the need to find replacement for Crockett, now 33. Expect EOYT will see one of Hames/Manu/Goodes get put through paces.
Not said openly by Shag, but I think selectors picked loosies with eyes on inevitable moving on of Kaino, also now 33. Dixon and Squire both seem to be in the big hit/powerful running style of a Kaino 6. Would also explain omission of Luatua, who has been excellent for Blues, but is the natural replacement for the skills of Read if, God forbid, he got injured.
Will be interesting how midfield shapes. Historic preference for power 12/ skiled 13 would argue for Fekitoa (12)/Crotty or Tamanivalu (12)/Ngatai -- the opposite of their usual roles (Fekitoa seems much more at home at 13).
</div>
</blockquote>
Hames ? He can't win a starting spot in the Chiefs XV and you see him as a FAB ? The Chiefs scrum started to suffer a lot against the Tahs when Graham and Yamashita were replaced. Maybe it was not entirely his fault but what did he show lately which could lead the selectors to pay attention to him ?
I think he is just not big enough for the job at the international level and his workate has nothing extraordinary. Edmunds and Goodes look more promising prospects IMO as they are strong scrummagers and offer much more in the loose. In a year or two, Hodgman could emerge as he has all the attributes to become a first class LHP.

MiketheSnow

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="584073" data-time="1464598475">
<div>
Lydiate is now out of the tour with a shoulder injury he picked up in the loss to England. Warburton did not play due to injury but will tour and Tipuric is also out longer term. Lydiate is being replaced by the uncapped Ellis Jenkins, a natural open side.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Warburton is expected to be fit for the 1st Test.
 
Tipuric is on long-term rest for concussion after leaving the field against Italy in the 6N.
 
James Davies, brother of centre Jonathan Davies, was not selected for the touring party but has been selected for the GB 7s training squad for the 2016 Olympics.
 
Ellis Jenkins has had a very good season with the Blues often playing 7 with Warburton at 6. He's a former Wales U-20 captain. Not the biggest but has very good technique over the ball.
 
If we have any hope of competing at the breakdown then I would start with Moriarty, Warburton, Faletau with Jenkins on the bench.

pooler fan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Provincial Stalwart" data-cid="583983" data-time="1464580935">I heard that Lydiate news from a workmate and Bovidae just confirmed it. So Wales' loose forward situation is looking pretty grim right? I'd be pleased to have any Taffs, and anyone up with the play, comment on this (or anyone with an ability to do internet research for that matter). 
The Telegraph website named these loose forwards as original selections for the tour: 
T Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons), J King (Ospreys), D Lydiate (Ospreys), R Moriarty (Gloucester), J Turnbull (Cardiff Blues), S Warburton (Cardiff Blues, capt). 
Take out Lydiate, and considering Warburton is still an injury concern I believe, then Wales is struggling. Lydiate started the England friendly at 7 I think, captaining the team. Seems Tipuric is also injured out of the series.</blockquote>
From a Welsh perspective I'd have preferred Lydiate to stay fit but the inclusion of Ellis Jenkins is just about the best news we could get. 
Yesterday was an accident waiting to happen given the matchday squad. Wales whole gameplan is reliant on winning collisions & turn-overs in the tackle area. Take Warburton out of that equation & it immediately became more difficult. To then shoe-horn Lydiate at 7 (it's a stretch these days to say he's quick enough for 6 never mind 7) without bench cover was suicidal. 
We spent the last 50 of that game with James King in the openside role, this is a guy who's been on form for the Ospreys at 8 but has spent most of his career at lock. This immediately gave the impetus to England to enjoy a free reign at the breakdown. 
Given England started with Haskell at 7 if we'd selected a "proper" openside we'd have enjoyed a regular supply of turn-over ball. To make it more annoying two of the best opensides in Wales this season have been Ellis Jenkins & James Davies - both overlooked by Gatland.

MiketheSnow

Well that was shitter than shit.
 
Worst display of basic skills I've seen in a decade at least. Defence was pathetic. <a class="" href="https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/justnotgoodenough?source=feed_text&story_id=10154226998628624">â€ª#â€Žjustnotgoodenoughâ€¬</a>
 
And I hope the World Rugby official who's marking the ref, touch judges, and TMO has run out of red pen.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="pooler fan" data-cid="584096" data-time="1464604133">
<div>
.....Given England started with Haskell at 7 if we'd selected a "proper" openside we'd have enjoyed a regular supply of turn-over ball. To make it more annoying two of the best opensides in Wales this season have been Ellis Jenkins & James Davies - both overlooked by Gatland.
</div>
</blockquote>
That pretty much sums up England for the last ten years or so. You don't get any moaning rights on this issue unless you can show no selection of a 7 for at least five years.

pooler fan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="584099" data-time="1464604664">That pretty much sums up England for the last ten years or so. You don't get any moaning rights on this issue unless you can show no selection of a 7 for at least five years.</blockquote>
Very true, luckily for you guys the emergence of guys like Clifford can end that era once & for all.

Glath

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="cgrant" data-cid="584093" data-time="1464603121">
<div>
Hames ? He can't win a starting spot in the Chiefs XV and you see him as a FAB ? The Chiefs scrum started to suffer a lot against the Tahs when Graham and Yamashita were replaced. Maybe it was not entirely his fault but what did he show lately which could lead the selectors to pay attention to him ?
I think he is just not big enough for the job at the international level and his workate has nothing extraordinary. Edmunds and Goodes look more promising prospects IMO as they are strong scrummagers and offer much more in the loose. In a year or two, Hodgman could emerge as he has all the attributes to become a first class LHP.
</div>
</blockquote>
Not sure whether Hames will be a FAB, but he is only playing this season because the Chiefs had a big run of injuries in the front row. He left the Highlanders to take a year off rugby to recover from injury.
 
Doubt he's playing at his best right now.

nostrildamus

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="583787" data-time="1464519468">
In my defense I did say I can't think of many. I'm tired...</blockquote>
 
Were the Whitlocks the only other recent brothers?

The Silver Fern

All Blacks vs Wales