All Blacks 2024
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
If you take Mariner's theory that we likely would have beaten France if we'd had Sam Cane instead of Peter Lakai - would you be willing to give Sam that extra cap and take the cap away from Peter if you could have that win?
just to be absolutely clear, i am not knocking him for picking his best team every week. Given the spread out schedule, i actually applaud that.
My point was more Razor bemoaning the South African "strength in depth" as a reason they do better than us, having done absolutely nothing about that. In my mind that's cake and eat it territory.
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Your argument, as I read it, is that there are moving goal posts.
I dispute that.
You are conflating the ‘must always win’ with ‘develop the team’ . Previous coaching teams have shown its entirely possible to do both.
Picking experienced guys wouldn’t be an issue if they were so clearly playing better than the younger generation. But they aren’t, and we lost.
As the young guys only get a chance through injury, we cant answer part of the question, but our best players all year have been the younger guys. They perform (e.g., Aumua) then get benched. Niiiice.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
Victor reckons Razor can lose and people would be happy with that if he'd picked the Baby Blacks
Not what I remotely said.
Which was that many people would have been happy with 10-4 (or even 8-6) if there was evidence of a new, fresh approach, more on-field smarts and player development.
Instead we've had a reliance on retiring players and an almost bizarre fetish to bring Mo'unga back by changing the rules. Would have been OK if we played well but we didn't - we went to pieces more often than not.
I really hope he kicks on next year, but the jury is pretty much out ATM.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
After winning vs Oz, Oz, Japan, England and Ireland, the nay-sayers had somewhat quietened and there were even - god help us - a few vaguely positive comments. People "could see where Razor's taking the team".
So, the nay sayers should have been quietened by two wins, one very shaky, over a poor Wallabies side, a walkover against Japan, yet another close call versus a very limited Pomgolia and a decent showing up against an Ireland who are clearly in decline?
I'm stating that as a fact. If you look at the Ireland thread after the match and the France thread pre-match, there was actually - for once - a small degree of positivity.
As soon as we lost to France, that evaporated.
Ok, this feels like bait, but I’ll play.
These types of selections may be entirely forgivable, if we won. But we didn’t.
I don't know why you think it's bait, because you're at least partially agreeing with me.
I'm saying that if you win everything is forgiven - except a lack of style.
Victor reckons Razor can lose and people would be happy with that if he'd picked the Baby Blacks.
I reckon if he loses nothing is forgiven.
Not just Razor - every All Black coach. Remeber Sir Ted wondering if he'd be able to live in NZ if they'd lost the 2011 final.
Geez, you come across as a Razor apologist. I don't mind if we lose against the best, provided we are moving towards a good strategic plan.
What I am disappointed with this year is what I see as an overall lack of intelligence in so many things around the AB's. Every turn it seems like gut reactions taking things back to tried and true. Against Italy it felt like watching the Crusaders, grinding out an ugly win.
What I would like to see is the innovative moves, strategies and player management that Razor supporters said would be a given. NZRU giving a 4 year contract looks pretty dumb to me currently. It all smacks of a lack of strategic plan and just running with what came naturally, or what deals with social media opinion.
I dont mind us losing sometimes if we develop a national style that fits with our ethos to run the ball wide as per schools, npc and super rugby. It invokes passion in players and supporters. And we will have plenty of skilled players developing to play that way. But having your two key AB plays as scrumming for penalties and having your quickest player looking to just crash into opponents instead of running into space or looking to set up others, does my head in.
I do worry that NZ Rugby is losing its soul and ethos, initially with Silver Lake and secondly with how this latest regime seems to be doing anything for short term results and image.
NRL and cricket look a bit more appealing currently. -
@SammyC said in All Blacks 2024:
Long time listener, first time caller 😊
This season hasn’t surprised me at all, I’ve been a part of the local rugby scene in Chch for a number of years….. and have had a few dealings with both Razor and Jase Ryan.
Razor has no interest in building depth past the next world cup, he’s all about his own legacy and wants to win the world cup with NZ and then go and win it with England or someone else. Becoming the first coach to win it with 2 different countries.
Rightly or wrongly, he thinks picking all the old blokes is the way to do it.
Jason Ryan is a bit of a prick and hates Hoskins Sotutu.
Jason is very good at holding grudges. There’s a number of people around the traps down here that have been cut off by for disagreeing with him (or just not giving him the accolades he thinks he deserves).Despite the above, I am still glad we have these guys and not Foster.
Welcome back mate.
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@gt12 Not sure about moving goal posts - I'm very firm - the absolute priority is to win.
In terms of this season, I think there were only three games where it was relatively safe to run out something short of our best team - vs Fiji and Japan we did it - and vs Italy, I think Razor wanted to ensure finishing on a strong note - against a team that had beaten Wales and Scotland and drawn with France.
I'm guessing he was pretty disappointed in that final performance and if he had his time again might have done a bit of refreshing. They looked like a team who played their final last week.
By necessity, given all the people we lost from last year, I think there's been plenty of development - especially including the promotion to the front line of people who were largely bit part players in Fozzie's era - the likes of Aumua, Williams, Vaai, Roigard - even DMac, who prior to this year had only started 5 tests at 10 and now has started 15.
In terms of old guys - I don't really get the Beaudy promotion over the latter part of the season.
I'm not at all in the ditch Ardie camp - I think he's got plenty more to offer.
I'm happy enough with the way they used Sam Cane - and especially once Paps was injured.
I don't think the new guys were uniformly good. Sititi was. Aumua improved as the season progressed. Ratima faded. Roigard was pretty awful in the first 15 minutes vs Italy - if he'd played and produced that in the RWC final Finlay Christie would be a lot more popular.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
Which was that many people would have been happy with 10-4 (or even 8-6) if there was evidence of a new, fresh approach, more on-field smarts and player development.
A slight exaggeration on my part for entertainment purposes.
But, I entirely disagree with your statement.
There would be very few people who would be remotely forgiving of 8-6 no matter who had been selected.
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I've made the point over and over, the AB coach is a shit job.
Win? Well we're the ABs, you're supposed to
Lose? You fucking suck, all we do is win
Must start best team every week so you win
Must build depth so we have 2 World XV candidates in all positions. If we don't you suck
If you win, but not with style, you suck
If you lose but play pretty, you should have been more pragmatic.NZ rugby fans are never fucking happy. And it's probably that pressure that leads to our success.
But it's a shit job. I bet you can get more money for less pressure anywhere else.
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
After winning vs Oz, Oz, Japan, England and Ireland, the nay-sayers had somewhat quietened and there were even - god help us - a few vaguely positive comments. People "could see where Razor's taking the team".
So, the nay sayers should have been quietened by two wins, one very shaky, over a poor Wallabies side, a walkover against Japan, yet another close call versus a very limited Pomgolia and a decent showing up against an Ireland who are clearly in decline?
Pomgolia
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
On the other hand he could have said "I'm going to develop a new team and try new things but there will be some bumps along the way, but bear with me" and he would have had an attentive audience.
Instead he says 'test rugby is all about experience', and once those experienced players have gone we're not going to have enough in the layer below. But no we can still use them as we'll pick overseas, and the layer below will get even weaker, and SR will fully die
And still he lost far too many and still playing the flat to the line and fling it wide shit that hasn't worked for years.
He is after getting the gig one World Cup cycle after he wanted/should have got it and probably has the hump that the toys he had at the Crusaders are not at his disposal any more.
Whitelock as captain and Mo'unga running the cutter.
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@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
After winning vs Oz, Oz, Japan, England and Ireland, the nay-sayers had somewhat quietened and there were even - god help us - a few vaguely positive comments. People "could see where Razor's taking the team".
So, the nay sayers should have been quietened by two wins, one very shaky, over a poor Wallabies side, a walkover against Japan, yet another close call versus a very limited Pomgolia and a decent showing up against an Ireland who are clearly in decline?
I'm stating that as a fact. If you look at the Ireland thread after the match and the France thread pre-match, there was actually - for once - a small degree of positivity.
As soon as we lost to France, that evaporated.
Ok, this feels like bait, but I’ll play.
These types of selections may be entirely forgivable, if we won. But we didn’t.
I don't know why you think it's bait, because you're at least partially agreeing with me.
I'm saying that if you win everything is forgiven - except a lack of style.
Victor reckons Razor can lose and people would be happy with that if he'd picked the Baby Blacks.
I reckon if he loses nothing is forgiven.
Not just Razor - every All Black coach. Remeber Sir Ted wondering if he'd be able to live in NZ if they'd lost the 2011 final.
Geez, you come across as a Razor apologist. I don't mind if we lose against the best, provided we are moving towards a good strategic plan.
What I am disappointed with this year is what I see as an overall lack of intelligence in so many things around the AB's. Every turn it seems like gut reactions taking things back to tried and true. Against Italy it felt like watching the Crusaders, grinding out an ugly win.I think we, the fans, have largely driven this by demanding that the ABs never lose. Look at what happened to Fozzie after his run of half a dozen losses. Hansen losing to Ireland for the first time. Hart's horse. Every RWC elimination - except maybe Laurie, but he had Suzy to blame.
There's a very clear message sent to the AB coaches - don't lose!!!
The point I'm making to Victor.
Edit: @mariner4life Snap!
Sorry that my effort to inject a little bit of positivity into the discussion just makes me a Razor apologist. I'll try to be more dismally negative in the future so as not to not to disrupt the wake!
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
After winning vs Oz, Oz, Japan, England and Ireland, the nay-sayers had somewhat quietened and there were even - god help us - a few vaguely positive comments. People "could see where Razor's taking the team".
So, the nay sayers should have been quietened by two wins, one very shaky, over a poor Wallabies side, a walkover against Japan, yet another close call versus a very limited Pomgolia and a decent showing up against an Ireland who are clearly in decline?
I'm stating that as a fact. If you look at the Ireland thread after the match and the France thread pre-match, there was actually - for once - a small degree of positivity.
As soon as we lost to France, that evaporated.
Ok, this feels like bait, but I’ll play.
These types of selections may be entirely forgivable, if we won. But we didn’t.
I don't know why you think it's bait, because you're at least partially agreeing with me.
I'm saying that if you win everything is forgiven - except a lack of style.
Victor reckons Razor can lose and people would be happy with that if he'd picked the Baby Blacks.
I reckon if he loses nothing is forgiven.
Not just Razor - every All Black coach. Remeber Sir Ted wondering if he'd be able to live in NZ if they'd lost the 2011 final.
Geez, you come across as a Razor apologist. I don't mind if we lose against the best, provided we are moving towards a good strategic plan.
What I am disappointed with this year is what I see as an overall lack of intelligence in so many things around the AB's. Every turn it seems like gut reactions taking things back to tried and true. Against Italy it felt like watching the Crusaders, grinding out an ugly win.I think we, the fans, have largely driven this by demanding that the ABs never lose. Look at what happened to Fozzie after his run of half a dozen losses. Hansen losing to Ireland for the first time. Hart's horse. Every RWC elimination - except maybe Laurie, but he had Suzy to blame.
There's a very clear message sent to the AB coaches - don't lose!!!
The point I'm making to Victor.
Edit: @mariner4life Snap!
Sorry that my effort to inject a little bit of positivity into the discussion just makes me a Razor apologist. I'll try to be more dismally negative in the future so as not to not to disrupt the wake!
@mariner4life summed it up well, and when viewed through that lens, and that is definitely my lens, the jury is well and truly out. After the ireland test, there was potential for things to be far more positive, but we've returned to a hung jury.
Win? Well we're the ABs, you're supposed to (Lost a bad one, let at least two get away)
Lose? You fucking suck, all we do is win (see above)
Must start best team every week so you win (if we didn't win, it likely is because you didn't start the best team, so if you are making safe choices, you're in the gun)
Must build depth so we have 2 World XV candidates in all positions. If we don't you suck (injury has been the main thing which has provided opportunity this year)
If you win, but not with style, you suck (No points in the last 20 for a number of games, clunky attack, Barrett the handbrake)
If you lose but play pretty, you should have been more pragmatic (This goes both ways, given that we lost one we should have won as the captain is a numpty). -
@gt12 Yep - I agree with Mariner's assessment as well. I wouldn't take the job for all the tea in China!
Jury is definitely still out on Razor's era, but there's no way he's in the gun for a sacking.
I said at the start of the season that I'd consider 10-4 a pass (actually, 9-4, because whatever schedule I looked at didn't have the Italy game listed). I also said if we dropped a game to either Argentina or Oz we'd struggle mightily to achieve that.
So - a pass it is - and I think a B-. Probably would have been a B if we'd given the Italians a drubbing.
Could have been better, but could also have been a lot worse.
It was a very tough schedule - the only top-10 team we didn't play was Scotland, and almost all of them we played at least once away (not Argentina).
We'd also lost a bunch of legends, ultra experienced players and useful squaddies.
On the other hand, I've been somewhat disappointed that Razor's Super rugby stardust hasn't transferred as well as I'd hoped it might into test rugby. His last Super season where no matter how many players he lost he kept on winning gave me a probably unrealistic hope he'd be able to paper any cracks from the loss of the legends.
I've also not been particularly impressed with parts of the gameplan and especially our attack, which has looked a bit muddled for most of the year. They need to go away and work out what's not working and fix it.
Generally, the forwards have been decent and have clearly improved over the season - and I think our defence has looked better and more secure than under Fozzie - and especially the 2021/22 iterations. I think we shored it up in 2023.
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Experience only gets you so far. France had 300 less caps than us in the starting XVs but ultimately they won because their players were better than ours. There wasn't anything special about their game plan.
Actual rugby ability will ultimately beat experience if you do the basics right.
We couldn't even kick to the corner and score from a lineout maul. Something they did in one of their 3 tries to our 2
.Picking fast wings instead of your favourite experienced Crusader player who gets burnt by a lock in the previous games.
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We didn't lose a 'bunch of legends', we lost 3 BBBR, Sam, and Smith. And BBBR had been eclipsed by SB last year. Razor was afraid to lose, and picked 'the best team' - which to him pretty much meant the most experienced team. But he is incorrect, and we still haven't found out the best in many positions due to this lack of forward thought.
Edit: This cowardice was really shown in the Italy game. He played what he thought was his best team against Italy. But his best team were knackered after 3 hard games in a row and it showed. A judicious injection of junior players would've made a huge difference imo. I'm not talking full scale changes, he hasn't given them enough time previously to even think about that, but play a fuck load more newbies. And playing cane and tj so they could sign off was utter amateur team bollocks
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@SammyC big welcome back, and thanks for those insights, that does help explain the absolutely inexplicable omission of Sotutu which is just so unprofessional (being nice there). Also helps to explain Akira taking the money in Japan, it's a credit to Sotutu that he has hung around TBH. NZR is turning into a mickey mouse organisation (well more so than usual).
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
There would be very few people who would be remotely forgiving of 8-6 no matter who had been selected.
My point was it could easily have been 8-6 - that was how badly they played for much of the year.
And if we continue to play like that, and with the current approach, there'll be even more losses
