All Blacks 2024
-
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
After winning vs Oz, Oz, Japan, England and Ireland, the nay-sayers had somewhat quietened and there were even - god help us - a few vaguely positive comments. People "could see where Razor's taking the team".
So, the nay sayers should have been quietened by two wins, one very shaky, over a poor Wallabies side, a walkover against Japan, yet another close call versus a very limited Pomgolia and a decent showing up against an Ireland who are clearly in decline?
Pomgolia
-
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
On the other hand he could have said "I'm going to develop a new team and try new things but there will be some bumps along the way, but bear with me" and he would have had an attentive audience.
Instead he says 'test rugby is all about experience', and once those experienced players have gone we're not going to have enough in the layer below. But no we can still use them as we'll pick overseas, and the layer below will get even weaker, and SR will fully die
And still he lost far too many and still playing the flat to the line and fling it wide shit that hasn't worked for years.
He is after getting the gig one World Cup cycle after he wanted/should have got it and probably has the hump that the toys he had at the Crusaders are not at his disposal any more.
Whitelock as captain and Mo'unga running the cutter.
-
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
After winning vs Oz, Oz, Japan, England and Ireland, the nay-sayers had somewhat quietened and there were even - god help us - a few vaguely positive comments. People "could see where Razor's taking the team".
So, the nay sayers should have been quietened by two wins, one very shaky, over a poor Wallabies side, a walkover against Japan, yet another close call versus a very limited Pomgolia and a decent showing up against an Ireland who are clearly in decline?
I'm stating that as a fact. If you look at the Ireland thread after the match and the France thread pre-match, there was actually - for once - a small degree of positivity.
As soon as we lost to France, that evaporated.
Ok, this feels like bait, but I’ll play.
These types of selections may be entirely forgivable, if we won. But we didn’t.
I don't know why you think it's bait, because you're at least partially agreeing with me.
I'm saying that if you win everything is forgiven - except a lack of style.
Victor reckons Razor can lose and people would be happy with that if he'd picked the Baby Blacks.
I reckon if he loses nothing is forgiven.
Not just Razor - every All Black coach. Remeber Sir Ted wondering if he'd be able to live in NZ if they'd lost the 2011 final.
Geez, you come across as a Razor apologist. I don't mind if we lose against the best, provided we are moving towards a good strategic plan.
What I am disappointed with this year is what I see as an overall lack of intelligence in so many things around the AB's. Every turn it seems like gut reactions taking things back to tried and true. Against Italy it felt like watching the Crusaders, grinding out an ugly win.I think we, the fans, have largely driven this by demanding that the ABs never lose. Look at what happened to Fozzie after his run of half a dozen losses. Hansen losing to Ireland for the first time. Hart's horse. Every RWC elimination - except maybe Laurie, but he had Suzy to blame.
There's a very clear message sent to the AB coaches - don't lose!!!
The point I'm making to Victor.
Edit: @mariner4life Snap!
Sorry that my effort to inject a little bit of positivity into the discussion just makes me a Razor apologist. I'll try to be more dismally negative in the future so as not to not to disrupt the wake!
-
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
After winning vs Oz, Oz, Japan, England and Ireland, the nay-sayers had somewhat quietened and there were even - god help us - a few vaguely positive comments. People "could see where Razor's taking the team".
So, the nay sayers should have been quietened by two wins, one very shaky, over a poor Wallabies side, a walkover against Japan, yet another close call versus a very limited Pomgolia and a decent showing up against an Ireland who are clearly in decline?
I'm stating that as a fact. If you look at the Ireland thread after the match and the France thread pre-match, there was actually - for once - a small degree of positivity.
As soon as we lost to France, that evaporated.
Ok, this feels like bait, but I’ll play.
These types of selections may be entirely forgivable, if we won. But we didn’t.
I don't know why you think it's bait, because you're at least partially agreeing with me.
I'm saying that if you win everything is forgiven - except a lack of style.
Victor reckons Razor can lose and people would be happy with that if he'd picked the Baby Blacks.
I reckon if he loses nothing is forgiven.
Not just Razor - every All Black coach. Remeber Sir Ted wondering if he'd be able to live in NZ if they'd lost the 2011 final.
Geez, you come across as a Razor apologist. I don't mind if we lose against the best, provided we are moving towards a good strategic plan.
What I am disappointed with this year is what I see as an overall lack of intelligence in so many things around the AB's. Every turn it seems like gut reactions taking things back to tried and true. Against Italy it felt like watching the Crusaders, grinding out an ugly win.I think we, the fans, have largely driven this by demanding that the ABs never lose. Look at what happened to Fozzie after his run of half a dozen losses. Hansen losing to Ireland for the first time. Hart's horse. Every RWC elimination - except maybe Laurie, but he had Suzy to blame.
There's a very clear message sent to the AB coaches - don't lose!!!
The point I'm making to Victor.
Edit: @mariner4life Snap!
Sorry that my effort to inject a little bit of positivity into the discussion just makes me a Razor apologist. I'll try to be more dismally negative in the future so as not to not to disrupt the wake!
@mariner4life summed it up well, and when viewed through that lens, and that is definitely my lens, the jury is well and truly out. After the ireland test, there was potential for things to be far more positive, but we've returned to a hung jury.
Win? Well we're the ABs, you're supposed to (Lost a bad one, let at least two get away)
Lose? You fucking suck, all we do is win (see above)
Must start best team every week so you win (if we didn't win, it likely is because you didn't start the best team, so if you are making safe choices, you're in the gun)
Must build depth so we have 2 World XV candidates in all positions. If we don't you suck (injury has been the main thing which has provided opportunity this year)
If you win, but not with style, you suck (No points in the last 20 for a number of games, clunky attack, Barrett the handbrake)
If you lose but play pretty, you should have been more pragmatic (This goes both ways, given that we lost one we should have won as the captain is a numpty). -
@gt12 Yep - I agree with Mariner's assessment as well. I wouldn't take the job for all the tea in China!
Jury is definitely still out on Razor's era, but there's no way he's in the gun for a sacking.
I said at the start of the season that I'd consider 10-4 a pass (actually, 9-4, because whatever schedule I looked at didn't have the Italy game listed). I also said if we dropped a game to either Argentina or Oz we'd struggle mightily to achieve that.
So - a pass it is - and I think a B-. Probably would have been a B if we'd given the Italians a drubbing.
Could have been better, but could also have been a lot worse.
It was a very tough schedule - the only top-10 team we didn't play was Scotland, and almost all of them we played at least once away (not Argentina).
We'd also lost a bunch of legends, ultra experienced players and useful squaddies.
On the other hand, I've been somewhat disappointed that Razor's Super rugby stardust hasn't transferred as well as I'd hoped it might into test rugby. His last Super season where no matter how many players he lost he kept on winning gave me a probably unrealistic hope he'd be able to paper any cracks from the loss of the legends.
I've also not been particularly impressed with parts of the gameplan and especially our attack, which has looked a bit muddled for most of the year. They need to go away and work out what's not working and fix it.
Generally, the forwards have been decent and have clearly improved over the season - and I think our defence has looked better and more secure than under Fozzie - and especially the 2021/22 iterations. I think we shored it up in 2023.
-
Experience only gets you so far. France had 300 less caps than us in the starting XVs but ultimately they won because their players were better than ours. There wasn't anything special about their game plan.
Actual rugby ability will ultimately beat experience if you do the basics right.
We couldn't even kick to the corner and score from a lineout maul. Something they did in one of their 3 tries to our 2
.Picking fast wings instead of your favourite experienced Crusader player who gets burnt by a lock in the previous games.
-
We didn't lose a 'bunch of legends', we lost 3 BBBR, Sam, and Smith. And BBBR had been eclipsed by SB last year. Razor was afraid to lose, and picked 'the best team' - which to him pretty much meant the most experienced team. But he is incorrect, and we still haven't found out the best in many positions due to this lack of forward thought.
Edit: This cowardice was really shown in the Italy game. He played what he thought was his best team against Italy. But his best team were knackered after 3 hard games in a row and it showed. A judicious injection of junior players would've made a huge difference imo. I'm not talking full scale changes, he hasn't given them enough time previously to even think about that, but play a fuck load more newbies. And playing cane and tj so they could sign off was utter amateur team bollocks
-
@SammyC big welcome back, and thanks for those insights, that does help explain the absolutely inexplicable omission of Sotutu which is just so unprofessional (being nice there). Also helps to explain Akira taking the money in Japan, it's a credit to Sotutu that he has hung around TBH. NZR is turning into a mickey mouse organisation (well more so than usual).
-
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
There would be very few people who would be remotely forgiving of 8-6 no matter who had been selected.
My point was it could easily have been 8-6 - that was how badly they played for much of the year.
And if we continue to play like that, and with the current approach, there'll be even more losses
-
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
But why on earth would Ryan hate Sotutu?
Sotutu and Ryan were both part of the ABs in 2022. I guess that's where Ryan developed his dislike for Sotutu?
-
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
But why on earth would Ryan hate Sotutu?
Ryan probably told Sotutu how to carry the ball and was ignored.
-
@SammyC said in All Blacks 2024:
Long time listener, first time caller 😊
This season hasn’t surprised me at all, I’ve been a part of the local rugby scene in Chch for a number of years….. and have had a few dealings with both Razor and Jase Ryan.
Razor has no interest in building depth past the next world cup, he’s all about his own legacy and wants to win the world cup with NZ and then go and win it with England or someone else. Becoming the first coach to win it with 2 different countries.
Rightly or wrongly, he thinks picking all the old blokes is the way to do it.
Jason Ryan is a bit of a prick and hates Hoskins Sotutu.
Jason is very good at holding grudges. There’s a number of people around the traps down here that have been cut off by for disagreeing with him (or just not giving him the accolades he thinks he deserves).Despite the above, I am still glad we have these guys and not Foster.
Really intereesting scuttlebutt Sammy.
On Jason Ryan, well, the forward pack is VASTLY improved under him.
Perhaps you have to be a bit of a prick to drive that improvement.The average age of our players is significantly less than the Boks.
Rassie is attempting to build depth, but just how many of those coming through will be top level test players is hard to gauge. Especially when the more experienced heads depart.
(Bongi 34, Steph De Toit 32, Kwagga Smith 31, Etzebeth 33, Kolisi 33, Mostert 34, De Allende 33, Kolbe 31, Le Roux 35, Kriel 30, Am 31, Mapimpi 34)
In fact , if you look at the squad, there are very few young ones in there at all.
South Africa squad for season 2024/2025
South Africa2024/2025 squad : heights, weights, ages, birthdates...
-
-
@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Frank didn't he use more players though? Which could imply it's experience at the next level down that counts...
Which of the new players he has introduced are going to be at the same level as the more experienced heads in front of them?
I really don't know enough about their team to say.
Their 10 is certainly an upgrade.
Has he found another lock anywhere near as good as Etzebeth - no
Flankers as good as Steph De Toit, Kwagga Smith of Kolisi - noOther positions I am not sure.
What it looks to me is that while he has introduced players, the key point of whether they be as good as the predecessors is largely unknown. (and could be unlikely)
I think there may be significant step downs coming (hoping - haha)
-
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
After winning vs Oz, Oz, Japan, England and Ireland, the nay-sayers had somewhat quietened and there were even - god help us - a few vaguely positive comments. People "could see where Razor's taking the team".
So, the nay sayers should have been quietened by two wins, one very shaky, over a poor Wallabies side, a walkover against Japan, yet another close call versus a very limited Pomgolia and a decent showing up against an Ireland who are clearly in decline?
I'm stating that as a fact. If you look at the Ireland thread after the match and the France thread pre-match, there was actually - for once - a small degree of positivity.
As soon as we lost to France, that evaporated.
Ok, this feels like bait, but I’ll play.
These types of selections may be entirely forgivable, if we won. But we didn’t.
I don't know why you think it's bait, because you're at least partially agreeing with me.
I'm saying that if you win everything is forgiven - except a lack of style.
Victor reckons Razor can lose and people would be happy with that if he'd picked the Baby Blacks.
I reckon if he loses nothing is forgiven.
Not just Razor - every All Black coach. Remeber Sir Ted wondering if he'd be able to live in NZ if they'd lost the 2011 final.
The expectations of the NZ rugby public have been tempered by the results of the last few years....
-
@Frank squad renewal is hard. Especially when you’re trying to replace proven Champions.
Still, I’m only worried about three players:
Bongi
Malherbe
EbenAnd even then I’m not so worried about them as about their positions:
- Just aren’t that many right-sized humans with the right mentality for them: and
- it takes serious time and care to mature those few into greats in those positions.
Bongi and Malherbe were both shit when they first made the bok team. I used to wonder how stellar they must ‘ve been around a braai to keep getting selected. Took at least 3/4 years before I started to see what successive Bok selectors had seen.
Even Eben who was an obvious monster took a few seasons to get to Bok standard and a few more before I believed he was reaching Bakkies’ levels. And before that I used to worry that Bakkies wasn’t a solid replacement for Krynauw Otto who I thought was a poor man’s Wiese.
So Rassie better hurry up and find the next Eben, it would be shit to get into the situation you’ve had to suffer through replacing Brodie. Where you know the guy in the squad isn’t really up to snuff, but he’s sucking up caps and next thing you know he’s your captain.
