All Blacks 2024
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People complain about Finau not doing enough but he is better at the breakdown than Sititi. He reliably secures the ball.
Papali'i just gets to more breakdowns than Cane. He gets to breakdowns that Cane doesn't have the pace to get too. Razor desires a 15 man game with more width and Cane is not the guy for that game. The AB's and Cane improved under Foster when Schmidt took over because they started playing a narrower game plan that suits Cane's lack of mobility.
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@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
I don't see Schmitt as a long term Wallabies coach, he was only signed for two years with the main focus being on the Lions tour. We will see how well he is in the Bledisloe. Wonder if there is any chance of getting Dave Rennie back in New Zealand.
I not sure Rennie is the answer to be honest. I must admit I a Joseph fan, only because I think he is more a basic forward driven type coach.
But I not suggesting Razor should go anyway, I just believe we seeing the realistic situation. Razor was a very good super coach, and is still learning to be an international one. -
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
If we had a back row of Finau, Sotutu and Papalii and Stevenson at 15 and Proctor at 13 I’d forgive a couple of losses as we are blooding new combos etc.
I think this is part of the problem though - people in general wouldn't accept us getting towelled by 15-20 points, heck we are seeing a meltdown after losing two close tests.
Fact is, we are in between generations because for about a 4-6 year period, the production line was not as good as it has been, shown by the U20 Results.
Our best front rowers (outside of Taylor) are all 26 and under. Our five best locks (outside of Barrett) are all 24 and under. These guys will be peaking at the next World Cup.
Loose forwards remain a mish mash, because we are forced to stick with older guys, as the likes of Finau simply have not stepped up. If I was Razor and company, I would persist with Sititi, Cane/Papalii and Savea for the next couple of tests. Peter Lakai to me eventually comes in at 7, then it is a question of whether Savea is at 8 or is an impact sub. Plenty of blindsides coming through, so Sititi will eventually move to 8. This will sort itself.
Then the backs.
Halfback stocks look good, it will just take time for Ratima & Roigard to build up experience. First five is a massive issue, highlighted by the fact we are begging Mo'unga to come back. We haven't seen an 'All Black level' first five come through since Mo'unga. Hopefully one of Jacomb, Millar (or someone else) can really step up. I'd be tempted to pick one on the EOYT, purely because we need to start looking at someone. Plummer is not the answer, he is an injury stop gap.
Midfielders isn't a problem. Barrett and Ioane are doing a perfectly fine job. ALB and Procter certainly worth a try if you want to move Ioane back to the wing, but it is the least of our worries.
Outside backs will be fine too. Clarke has nailed down the left wing, and I think Jordan remains the option on the right wing. The two fullbacks is certainly necessary with the aerial strategies that will be employed - or at the very least a winger who is excellent under the high ball. Reece and Tele'a are on the way out I think, so who comes next? Narawa and Tavatavanawai would be the two I'd look at. Love to get a go at fullback too. These are regardless all inexperienced guys, and we couldn't chuck them all in at once.
In Foster's first year we lost to Argentina for the first time, and were a missed kick on full-time away from losing a home Bledisloe test - this is hardly comparable.
We conceded 38 to Argentina and 31 to SA anyway with the "seasoned pro's".
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz “razor wins each one of them” based on fucking what? He lost to Argentina at home?
Because I'm comparing the rugby we're playing under Razor to the rugby we played under Foster??
Which was the worst I have ever seen the All Blacks play in decades of watching?Our Argentina loss this year we were up 20-8 and threw the game away where we basically handed 2 free tries and collapsed. A game we blew.
Do you not remember the Argentina losses under Foster?
In those games we were genuinely dominated from minute 1 to minute 80. At NO point in those entire games did we look like winning.That has not happened once in Razors first year. All 3 losses we had a legitimate chance for victory, 2 of them where we had no right to lose from the position we were in.
So yes this is magnitudes better than Fosters first 2 years before Schmidt/Ryan joined.
Mate, what Foster did or didn't do 3 years ago has got bugger all to do with current AB problems.
We've gone from losing RWC 2023 to SA by one point with (14 men) to blowing a 27-14 lead at 68 minutes to lose 31-27 to SA. (And before you start throwing the "loss of experienced players" bullshit, both sides had 13 of their 23 at the RWC on that day)
How the fuck you regard that as progress or proof that we're playing better rugby overall under Robertson is beyond me.
Was 2020 too far back for you to remember?
Or 2021?Do you remember our first 2 years of Foster? Compared to Razors first year
Genuinely do people not watch the games?
From 2020-21 I distinctly remember us having no attacking shape whatsoever.
We would do one off runners from the halfback (2009 Bulls style), we wouldn't make meters, and then we'd box kick.
That's ALL we did for those 2 years until Schmidt joined and actually started introducing some shape to our attack.
Do people genuinely not remember how horrid this time was??
Even 2022-23 we still seemingly gave up on getting around the rush defense and instead committed to pick and go and one off runners smashing it up.
The antithesis of what our core skill-sets are and not leveraging what we have above all other countries.
We're only 3 months in with this new coaching setup and we have beaten and got around the rush defense more times in these 7 games than we managed the last 4 years.
Once we tidy up our phase play 5-10 metres out from the opposition try line and are more clinical in that area we're going to start putting up big scores against teams that have been troubling us this last decade.
The saying 'Cant see the Forest for the trees' comes to mind here with some of the criticism towards our performances thus far.
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@kpkanz the term "Helter Skelter" was used a lot on here to describe the pre-Schmidt Fozzie Blacks teams, or less flattering variations of that. And he had fewer excuses, considering it was a soft transition as he had been in the setup all along so knew the players well
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz bang on. It will take a while to bed in, but there is finally an effective attacking idea in place to combat the rush.
That's not to say Razor and his team haven't made some odd decisions. But I am in the give him time camp, for now
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I'm not sure I have quite the same recollection @kpkanz, still not flattering for Foster, but my memory is that we were far too keen to spin it wide early and we looked our best when we hit it up the guts and got opposition defense on the back foot first. I think a lack of effective ball runners is hurting Razor's squad right now, but that's his fault for picking a whole lot of players like himself (bar Sititi) instead of players that can get us go forward.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm not sure I have quite the same recollection @kpkanz, still not flattering for Foster, but my memory is that we were far too keen to spin it wide early and we looked our best when we hit it up the guts and got opposition defense on the back foot first. I think a lack of effective ball runners is hurting Razor's squad right now, but that's his fault for picking a whole lot of players like himself (bar Sititi) instead of players that can get us go forward.
Points off for at least kicking the tires of Akira and Hoskins. If he's that good a coach he should have been able to get a tune out of them where others have failed (Vern Cotter excepted)
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
Losing to SA in SA by 4 and 6 points is hardly a disaster. and most people would have accepted that.
It may be a minority view, but I really don't find losing 31-27 when you were 27-14 up with 12 minutes to go in any way acceptable.
Oh I agree. In the context of the game, we lost it more than they and Andrew brace won it. I was going to say something along those lines but didn’t want to write too long a reply!
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm not sure I have quite the same recollection @kpkanz, still not flattering for Foster, but my memory is that we were far too keen to spin it wide early and we looked our best when we hit it up the guts and got opposition defense on the back foot first. I think a lack of effective ball runners is hurting Razor's squad right now, but that's his fault for picking a whole lot of players like himself (bar Sititi) instead of players that can get us go forward.
Points off for at least kicking the tires of Akira and Hoskins. If he's that good a coach he should have been able to get a tune out of them where others have failed (Vern Cotter excepted)
I agree, especially when his strengths are meant to be man mgmt and getting the best out of players
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Why have the ABs become more beatable over the years? The IP has been given away to rivals who now know how to prepare for them.
In recent times:
Exhibit A - Joe Schmidt with Ireland.
Exhibit B - Gatland with the Lions.
Exhibit C - Tony Brown with the Boks
Erasmus: Understanding the All Blacks’ Mindset is Key to Springboks' Recent Success
Springboks coach Rassie Erasmus believes his South African side better understands the All Blacks' mentality.
Professionalism has negated the strengths NZ once had. Players and coaches go to the highest bidder. The ABs need to develop a new culture, a new DNA that binds the players, coaches and fans together again. Tricky spot to be in. I feel revolution is in the air, because evolution is not working.
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VIDEO: Boks boss hails All Black 'inside man' for Freedom Cup triumph - new zealand
REACTION: Head coach Rassie Erasmus said former All Blacks flyhalf Tony Brown has been a vital component in the Springboks' back-to-back wins over the All Blacks.
Erasmus added Jerry Flannery and Tony Brown to his coaching team, which is slowly proving to be another masterstroke by the 2019 World Cup-winning coach.
Erasmus revealed that Brown contributed immensely to the success and he gave the Springboks a better understanding of New Zealand, on and off the field.
“Tony [Brown] gave us a perspective on the All Blacks, which told us a lot about the things we didn’t understand. It makes us play better,” said Erasmus.
“We always respected them, but now we have a better understanding of how they think, from the haka to their players and the make-up of their team and how they do things.
“It’s quite amazing what he told us.”
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2024:
VIDEO: Boks boss hails All Black 'inside man' for Freedom Cup triumph - new zealand
REACTION: Head coach Rassie Erasmus said former All Blacks flyhalf Tony Brown has been a vital component in the Springboks' back-to-back wins over the All Blacks.
Erasmus added Jerry Flannery and Tony Brown to his coaching team, which is slowly proving to be another masterstroke by the 2019 World Cup-winning coach.
Erasmus revealed that Brown contributed immensely to the success and he gave the Springboks a better understanding of New Zealand, on and off the field.
“Tony [Brown] gave us a perspective on the All Blacks, which told us a lot about the things we didn’t understand. It makes us play better,” said Erasmus.
“We always respected them, but now we have a better understanding of how they think, from the haka to their players and the make-up of their team and how they do things.
“It’s quite amazing what he told us.”
He’s just rubbing it in now. Talking it up just to troll us
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@DaGrubster Or is he? Tony has gone native
The good news for NZ is that when Tony Brown comes off contract, he will have loads of stories to tell the NZRU about Bok rugby if they want to employ him.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Why have the ABs become more beatable over the years? The IP has been given away to rivals who now know how to prepare for them.
In recent times:
Exhibit A - Joe Schmidt with Ireland.
Exhibit B - Gatland with the Lions.
Exhibit C - Tony Brown with the Boks
Erasmus: Understanding the All Blacks’ Mindset is Key to Springboks' Recent Success
Springboks coach Rassie Erasmus believes his South African side better understands the All Blacks' mentality.
Professionalism has negated the strengths NZ once had. Players and coaches go to the highest bidder. The ABs need to develop a new culture, a new DNA that binds the players, coaches and fans together again. Tricky spot to be in. I feel revolution is in the air, because evolution is not working.
That picture disgusts me.
They are cozying up and condescending in equal measure. It's all mind games. Like Kolisi saying he was "so proud of Ardie". It puts you on a pedestal above the person you're paying the compliment to.
I actually do like the Roy Keane style......he hates lads shaking hands in the tunnel before games and swapping shirts on the pitch after a bad loss etc. Youre supposed to be going into battle.
In the first test in Ellis park Rieko got bundled into touch unceremoniously by De Allende.
Rieko was flat on his back and stuck his hand up for De Allende to pick him up.
De Allende just left him there and strode off with flared nostrils and chest puffed out.We are carrying on like we are the little brother in the fight.
Sure grab a beer with your opposite number in the sheds, but this Kolisi shite of the arm round the shoulder of Sititi giving it the old "well done young man you played well, keep the head down and work hard and youll go places". its a load of nonsense. You should be trying to break his ribs every time he gets the ball.
They are killing us with kindness while the knife is in the back. You wouldnt see them pulling stunts like that with Brad Thorn or Jerome Kaino.
Its mans work out there and we need to step up.
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Bro, that sort of thing has been happening forever. Probably not with Brad Thorn I guess as he was a highly experienced professional when he came into the ABs, so he's hardly going to get a 'well done young man'.
I don't understand why you think that a compliment from an aging opposition star after playing him for the first time would stop Wallace from wanting to fuck him up next game. If he thinks like you it would certainly add motivation in that direction, and if he takes it as a genuine compliment and it gives him added confidence at test level that's good too. Kolisi is a veteran RWC winning captain and Sititi is in his first run-on start - the pedestal is there whether you like it or not, it's not created by him saying 'well done mate' - and all ambitious young men forever want to knock people off their pedestal.The likes of de Groot, Taylor, Aumua, Samisoni, Cane aren't really back-down guys if you ask me. Clearly you lose a bit of hard man mana when you lose Retallick and Whitelock, that's to be expected. I'm all for more mongrel, but I reckon it's lack of composure that's killing us, not that.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
Bro, that sort of thing has been happening forever. Probably not with Brad Thorn I guess as he was a highly experienced professional when he came into the ABs, so he's hardly going to get a 'well done young man'.
I don't understand why you think that a compliment from an aging opposition star after playing him for the first time would stop Wallace from wanting to fuck him up next game. If he thinks like you it would certainly add motivation in that direction, and if he takes it as a genuine compliment and it gives him added confidence at test level that's good too. Kolisi is a veteran RWC winning captain and Sititi is in his first run-on start - the pedestal is there whether you like it or not, it's not created by him saying 'well done mate' - and all ambitious young men forever want to knock people off their pedestal.The likes of de Groot, Taylor, Aumua, Samisoni, Cane aren't really back-down guys if you ask me. Clearly you lose a bit of hard man mana when you lose Retallick and Whitelock, that's to be expected. I'm all for more mongrel, but I reckon it's lack of composure that's killing us, not that.
Sentiments echoed by Hall and Parsons on Aotearoa rugby pod last night. They suggested that mongrel and anger in isolation weren't helpful and could lead to indiscipline and poor execution. I don't think it was mongrel that let us down. It's poor decision making and execution at the wrong times
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@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
Why have the ABs become more beatable over the years? The IP has been given away to rivals who now know how to prepare for them.
In recent times:
Exhibit A - Joe Schmidt with Ireland.
Exhibit B - Gatland with the Lions.
Exhibit C - Tony Brown with the Boks
Erasmus: Understanding the All Blacks’ Mindset is Key to Springboks' Recent Success
Springboks coach Rassie Erasmus believes his South African side better understands the All Blacks' mentality.
Professionalism has negated the strengths NZ once had. Players and coaches go to the highest bidder. The ABs need to develop a new culture, a new DNA that binds the players, coaches and fans together again. Tricky spot to be in. I feel revolution is in the air, because evolution is not working.
That picture disgusts me.
They are cozying up and condescending in equal measure. It's all mind games. Like Kolisi saying he was "so proud of Ardie". It puts you on a pedestal above the person you're paying the compliment to.
I actually do like the Roy Keane style......he hates lads shaking hands in the tunnel before games and swapping shirts on the pitch after a bad loss etc. Youre supposed to be going into battle.
In the first test in Ellis park Rieko got bundled into touch unceremoniously by De Allende.
Rieko was flat on his back and stuck his hand up for De Allende to pick him up.
De Allende just left him there and strode off with flared nostrils and chest puffed out.We are carrying on like we are the little brother in the fight.
Sure grab a beer with your opposite number in the sheds, but this Kolisi shite of the arm round the shoulder of Sititi giving it the old "well done young man you played well, keep the head down and work hard and youll go places". its a load of nonsense. You should be trying to break his ribs every time he gets the ball.
They are killing us with kindness while the knife is in the back. You wouldnt see them pulling stunts like that with Brad Thorn or Jerome Kaino.
Its mans work out there and we need to step up.
Worth remembering that Ioane has acted like a bit of a tool on the field at times, that might be part of the reason
