All Blacks 2024
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Players will drop out of this squad in the next 6-18 months and new ones will come in as Razor makes decisions this is the norm, but I also think changes in coaching staff will happen in that period.
The mix is not right yet on and off the pitch.
NZ rugby dropped the ball I feel not having Joe Schmitt involved ... maybe at some point Vern Cotter may settle the ship. -
@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz “razor wins each one of them” based on fucking what? He lost to Argentina at home?
Because I'm comparing the rugby we're playing under Razor to the rugby we played under Foster??
Which was the worst I have ever seen the All Blacks play in decades of watching?Our Argentina loss this year we were up 20-8 and threw the game away where we basically handed 2 free tries and collapsed. A game we blew.
Do you not remember the Argentina losses under Foster?
In those games we were genuinely dominated from minute 1 to minute 80. At NO point in those entire games did we look like winning.That has not happened once in Razors first year. All 3 losses we had a legitimate chance for victory, 2 of them where we had no right to lose from the position we were in.
So yes this is magnitudes better than Fosters first 2 years before Schmidt/Ryan joined.
Mate, what Foster did or didn't do 3 years ago has got bugger all to do with current AB problems.
We've gone from losing RWC 2023 to SA by one point with (14 men) to blowing a 27-14 lead at 68 minutes to lose 31-27 to SA. (And before you start throwing the "loss of experienced players" bullshit, both sides had 13 of their 23 at the RWC on that day)
How the fuck you regard that as progress or proof that we're playing better rugby overall under Robertson is beyond me.
I didn't realise the RWC was in SA.
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I agree that Ryan's forwards have been incredibly inconsistent.
Its rare that there have been performances where everything is firing in the forwards. There seems to be always something wrong.
However often have we seen it all come together for the forwards against a top team?
When have we nailed the following all at the same time?
- Scrum
- Lineout
- Maul
- Breakdown
- Restarts
- Go forward with good carries
In the weekend:
- Scrum - wobbly start but steady later on
- Lineout - 83% won - a mediocre result
- Maul - 1 maul won - poor. Maul defense good but they still had 8 mauls where they retained possession
- Breakdown - Boks won more rucks
- Restarts - sloppy again
- Go forward with good carries - only Sititi close in and Taylor in the wider channels made ground. The rest were average.
South Africa's forwards had a clear advantage in maintaining possession over our forwards in both games.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I agree that Ryan's forwards have been incredibly inconsistent.
Its rare that there have been performances where everything is firing in the forwards. There seems to be always something wrong.
However often have we seen it all come together for the forwards against a top team?
When have we nailed the following all at the same time?
- Scrum
- Lineout
- Maul
- Breakdown
- Restarts
- Go forward with good carries
In the weekend:
- Scrum - wobbly start but steady later on
- Lineout - 83% won - a mediocre result
- Maul - 1 maul won - poor. Maul defense good but they still had 8 mauls where they retained possession
- Breakdown - Boks won more rucks
- Restarts - sloppy again
- Go forward with good carries - only Sititi close in and Taylor in the wider channels made ground. The rest were average.
We put more pressure on their lineout than they put on ours in my opinion - I don't think that's mediocre against SA (particularly with our short side selected).
We won 10 turnovers to their 4 - I felt we had the edge at the breakdown for much of the game (in both games actually).
Sititi helped with the carries no doubt, but it remains a relative weakness.My biggest gripe was the contestable kicks. Our kicks were worse than theirs, our chasers were much worse than theirs, and our protection of our catchers was fucking abject compared to theirs. Same-old as under Foster that aspect.
2nd biggest gripe soft try-line defence.
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If we had the edge at the breakdown we would be the ones winning more rucks and winning more possession but we weren't. We did win more possession and more rucks across the 2 England tests. The Highlanders and Harmon always win lots of turnovers because they can never dominate possesion.
We no longer have the composure in the backs to win games against South Africa playing with 45% possession to their 55% which is what it was in both games.
We do have the forwards in New Zealand to be the ones playing with 55% possession.
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People complain about Finau not doing enough but he is better at the breakdown than Sititi. He reliably secures the ball.
Papali'i just gets to more breakdowns than Cane. He gets to breakdowns that Cane doesn't have the pace to get too. Razor desires a 15 man game with more width and Cane is not the guy for that game. The AB's and Cane improved under Foster when Schmidt took over because they started playing a narrower game plan that suits Cane's lack of mobility.
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@SBW1 said in All Blacks 2024:
I don't see Schmitt as a long term Wallabies coach, he was only signed for two years with the main focus being on the Lions tour. We will see how well he is in the Bledisloe. Wonder if there is any chance of getting Dave Rennie back in New Zealand.
I not sure Rennie is the answer to be honest. I must admit I a Joseph fan, only because I think he is more a basic forward driven type coach.
But I not suggesting Razor should go anyway, I just believe we seeing the realistic situation. Razor was a very good super coach, and is still learning to be an international one. -
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
@Jet said in All Blacks 2024:
If we had a back row of Finau, Sotutu and Papalii and Stevenson at 15 and Proctor at 13 I’d forgive a couple of losses as we are blooding new combos etc.
I think this is part of the problem though - people in general wouldn't accept us getting towelled by 15-20 points, heck we are seeing a meltdown after losing two close tests.
Fact is, we are in between generations because for about a 4-6 year period, the production line was not as good as it has been, shown by the U20 Results.
Our best front rowers (outside of Taylor) are all 26 and under. Our five best locks (outside of Barrett) are all 24 and under. These guys will be peaking at the next World Cup.
Loose forwards remain a mish mash, because we are forced to stick with older guys, as the likes of Finau simply have not stepped up. If I was Razor and company, I would persist with Sititi, Cane/Papalii and Savea for the next couple of tests. Peter Lakai to me eventually comes in at 7, then it is a question of whether Savea is at 8 or is an impact sub. Plenty of blindsides coming through, so Sititi will eventually move to 8. This will sort itself.
Then the backs.
Halfback stocks look good, it will just take time for Ratima & Roigard to build up experience. First five is a massive issue, highlighted by the fact we are begging Mo'unga to come back. We haven't seen an 'All Black level' first five come through since Mo'unga. Hopefully one of Jacomb, Millar (or someone else) can really step up. I'd be tempted to pick one on the EOYT, purely because we need to start looking at someone. Plummer is not the answer, he is an injury stop gap.
Midfielders isn't a problem. Barrett and Ioane are doing a perfectly fine job. ALB and Procter certainly worth a try if you want to move Ioane back to the wing, but it is the least of our worries.
Outside backs will be fine too. Clarke has nailed down the left wing, and I think Jordan remains the option on the right wing. The two fullbacks is certainly necessary with the aerial strategies that will be employed - or at the very least a winger who is excellent under the high ball. Reece and Tele'a are on the way out I think, so who comes next? Narawa and Tavatavanawai would be the two I'd look at. Love to get a go at fullback too. These are regardless all inexperienced guys, and we couldn't chuck them all in at once.
In Foster's first year we lost to Argentina for the first time, and were a missed kick on full-time away from losing a home Bledisloe test - this is hardly comparable.
We conceded 38 to Argentina and 31 to SA anyway with the "seasoned pro's".
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@Yeahtheboys said in Springboks vs All Blacks 2:
@kpkanz “razor wins each one of them” based on fucking what? He lost to Argentina at home?
Because I'm comparing the rugby we're playing under Razor to the rugby we played under Foster??
Which was the worst I have ever seen the All Blacks play in decades of watching?Our Argentina loss this year we were up 20-8 and threw the game away where we basically handed 2 free tries and collapsed. A game we blew.
Do you not remember the Argentina losses under Foster?
In those games we were genuinely dominated from minute 1 to minute 80. At NO point in those entire games did we look like winning.That has not happened once in Razors first year. All 3 losses we had a legitimate chance for victory, 2 of them where we had no right to lose from the position we were in.
So yes this is magnitudes better than Fosters first 2 years before Schmidt/Ryan joined.
Mate, what Foster did or didn't do 3 years ago has got bugger all to do with current AB problems.
We've gone from losing RWC 2023 to SA by one point with (14 men) to blowing a 27-14 lead at 68 minutes to lose 31-27 to SA. (And before you start throwing the "loss of experienced players" bullshit, both sides had 13 of their 23 at the RWC on that day)
How the fuck you regard that as progress or proof that we're playing better rugby overall under Robertson is beyond me.
Was 2020 too far back for you to remember?
Or 2021?Do you remember our first 2 years of Foster? Compared to Razors first year
Genuinely do people not watch the games?
From 2020-21 I distinctly remember us having no attacking shape whatsoever.
We would do one off runners from the halfback (2009 Bulls style), we wouldn't make meters, and then we'd box kick.
That's ALL we did for those 2 years until Schmidt joined and actually started introducing some shape to our attack.
Do people genuinely not remember how horrid this time was??
Even 2022-23 we still seemingly gave up on getting around the rush defense and instead committed to pick and go and one off runners smashing it up.
The antithesis of what our core skill-sets are and not leveraging what we have above all other countries.
We're only 3 months in with this new coaching setup and we have beaten and got around the rush defense more times in these 7 games than we managed the last 4 years.
Once we tidy up our phase play 5-10 metres out from the opposition try line and are more clinical in that area we're going to start putting up big scores against teams that have been troubling us this last decade.
The saying 'Cant see the Forest for the trees' comes to mind here with some of the criticism towards our performances thus far.
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@kpkanz the term "Helter Skelter" was used a lot on here to describe the pre-Schmidt Fozzie Blacks teams, or less flattering variations of that. And he had fewer excuses, considering it was a soft transition as he had been in the setup all along so knew the players well
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@kpkanz bang on. It will take a while to bed in, but there is finally an effective attacking idea in place to combat the rush.
That's not to say Razor and his team haven't made some odd decisions. But I am in the give him time camp, for now
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I'm not sure I have quite the same recollection @kpkanz, still not flattering for Foster, but my memory is that we were far too keen to spin it wide early and we looked our best when we hit it up the guts and got opposition defense on the back foot first. I think a lack of effective ball runners is hurting Razor's squad right now, but that's his fault for picking a whole lot of players like himself (bar Sititi) instead of players that can get us go forward.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm not sure I have quite the same recollection @kpkanz, still not flattering for Foster, but my memory is that we were far too keen to spin it wide early and we looked our best when we hit it up the guts and got opposition defense on the back foot first. I think a lack of effective ball runners is hurting Razor's squad right now, but that's his fault for picking a whole lot of players like himself (bar Sititi) instead of players that can get us go forward.
Points off for at least kicking the tires of Akira and Hoskins. If he's that good a coach he should have been able to get a tune out of them where others have failed (Vern Cotter excepted)
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
Losing to SA in SA by 4 and 6 points is hardly a disaster. and most people would have accepted that.
It may be a minority view, but I really don't find losing 31-27 when you were 27-14 up with 12 minutes to go in any way acceptable.
Oh I agree. In the context of the game, we lost it more than they and Andrew brace won it. I was going to say something along those lines but didn’t want to write too long a reply!
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2024:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
I'm not sure I have quite the same recollection @kpkanz, still not flattering for Foster, but my memory is that we were far too keen to spin it wide early and we looked our best when we hit it up the guts and got opposition defense on the back foot first. I think a lack of effective ball runners is hurting Razor's squad right now, but that's his fault for picking a whole lot of players like himself (bar Sititi) instead of players that can get us go forward.
Points off for at least kicking the tires of Akira and Hoskins. If he's that good a coach he should have been able to get a tune out of them where others have failed (Vern Cotter excepted)
I agree, especially when his strengths are meant to be man mgmt and getting the best out of players
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Why have the ABs become more beatable over the years? The IP has been given away to rivals who now know how to prepare for them.
In recent times:
Exhibit A - Joe Schmidt with Ireland.
Exhibit B - Gatland with the Lions.
Exhibit C - Tony Brown with the Boks
Erasmus: Understanding the All Blacks’ Mindset is Key to Springboks' Recent Success
Springboks coach Rassie Erasmus believes his South African side better understands the All Blacks' mentality.
Professionalism has negated the strengths NZ once had. Players and coaches go to the highest bidder. The ABs need to develop a new culture, a new DNA that binds the players, coaches and fans together again. Tricky spot to be in. I feel revolution is in the air, because evolution is not working.
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VIDEO: Boks boss hails All Black 'inside man' for Freedom Cup triumph - new zealand
REACTION: Head coach Rassie Erasmus said former All Blacks flyhalf Tony Brown has been a vital component in the Springboks' back-to-back wins over the All Blacks.
Erasmus added Jerry Flannery and Tony Brown to his coaching team, which is slowly proving to be another masterstroke by the 2019 World Cup-winning coach.
Erasmus revealed that Brown contributed immensely to the success and he gave the Springboks a better understanding of New Zealand, on and off the field.
“Tony [Brown] gave us a perspective on the All Blacks, which told us a lot about the things we didn’t understand. It makes us play better,” said Erasmus.
“We always respected them, but now we have a better understanding of how they think, from the haka to their players and the make-up of their team and how they do things.
“It’s quite amazing what he told us.”
