All Blacks 2024
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024:
I look at team and think we haven't had world beating players for a few years now, so we work with what we got. I have lived through these dips with ABs a few times, and only way to keep going is look forward!
What you can look for is exactly what you look for in teams at any level. Some clarity of a game plan. An idea of how to beat the opposition and play to your strengths.
Hell, I'd say a defensive system that doesnt' ship 38 points at home, forwards who take the ball moving forward, chasers who know when kicks are happening and chase the ball, a lineout where jumpers jump to catch it and so on.
If we play to our potential and get beaten so be it. What shits me is poor selections, poor execution and what appear to be poor gameplans. All the while media are thrashwanking about the ABs and how amazing they are.
By the look of that picture. No wonder we are shit. The players must be knackered if that is the area we are walking to….
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2024:
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024:
I look at team and think we haven't had world beating players for a few years now, so we work with what we got. I have lived through these dips with ABs a few times, and only way to keep going is look forward!
What you can look for is exactly what you look for in teams at any level. Some clarity of a game plan. An idea of how to beat the opposition and play to your strengths.
Hell, I'd say a defensive system that doesnt' ship 38 points at home, forwards who take the ball moving forward, chasers who know when kicks are happening and chase the ball, a lineout where jumpers jump to catch it and so on.
If we play to our potential and get beaten so be it. What shits me is poor selections, poor execution and what appear to be poor gameplans. All the while media are thrashwanking about the ABs and how amazing they are.
By the look of that picture. No wonder we are shit. The players must be knackered if that is the area we are walking to….
I expect this from @nostrildamus , not you
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@mohikamo said in All Blacks 2024:
@Toddy
after 20 years of fun, market forces are finally starting to come into effect
still think NZ his intrinsic advantages over just about every other country
the game played by kids in the backyard is rugby, not soccer football, as by all others
we will always have at least a small edge in individual skills and game instincts
currently this edge is easily negated by the best opponentsThe de-skilling and powering-up of the game will negate any advantage we have from those instincts because those instincts are honed by little kids playing a low contact, high speed, ball in hand game. Those instincts just aren't suited at all to modern test rugby.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2024:
The Boks are incorporating former players who had leadership roles into their coaching structure, e.g. Vermeulen.
Why are the ABs not doing the same with the likes of Conrad Smith, Whitelock, McCaw and Carter? Surely it would help mentor the new crop and show them what level they need to be at to become the best.
Maybe they're not Razor's mates...?
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2024:
Plus none of those players listed have gone into coaching
And it's unclear whether any of them are Razor's mates.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024:
Genuine question, it's 2024 why are we even in the comparing Razor and Foster's records, they got nothing to do with each other, Foster was in the 2019-23 threads. They got different teams, play diiferent teams, haven't got same thing going on etc etc. I think we should just look at 2024.
I thought I lived in the past. I look at team and think we haven't had world beating players for a few years now, so we work with what we got. I have lived through these dips with ABs a few times, and only way to keep going is look forward!This is such a retarded argument - if the only thing that matters is the quality of the players, then why even bother appointing a coach, let alone going through the "process" of considering various candidates for the role? Just appoint me as the coach then if there's nothing that can be done with the shit talent we have available.
We all know that we have don't have the talent we once did - that's not the point. Irrespective of the available talent ,you expect the coach to pick the best of that available talent and not just his mates. You also expect the coach to implement a game plan that gets the most out of that talent. You also expect that that talent doesn't constantly make braindead decisions on the field and thereby exacerbate their lack of talent relative to their opposition or predecessors. In short, you expect the coach to make lemonade out of whatever lemons he has at his disposal.
One of the criticisms constantly - and fairly - levelled at Foster is that his teams performed at a level that was less than the sum of their parts. That is also the reality we are living in now with the new coaching regime under the Cantab Messiah.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2024:
the fuck are they going to do? are they suddenly twice the player they were 12 months ago?
I mean, the downward slide (@nostrildamus ) could be a cunning plan from Razor to get his way and bring back his guys (that all signed overseas contracts as soon as he was announced as coach).
At this stage, he should just pick his last Crusaders team - at least they would all know each other and the game plan.
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@junior Why is a retarded argument to say just perhaps we haven't got world beating players. I genuinely don't think we have. although we have good ones, we haven't got more than one or 2 at a push would make a world XV.
My question was why are we comparing Foster and Razor in 2024 AB thread, shouldn't that be elsewhere, Foster has absolutely no say in this team. It's like saying we would of done such and such with McCaw and Carter etc.
I suggesting we look at who we got now and at coached we got now , comparing past does nothing. Where in that post did I suggest you have just any coach because the players aren't as good as they were? -
it is the chicken and the egg though.
SA were probably saying they didn't have the players when we beat them by 50 at NH stadium then Erassmus came along and alot of those players suddenly go on to be the players that would last year fill up most spots in a world 15. If our players were better selected and coached and player to a gameplan that suits test rugby and our skills would they all be contenders for a world 15?
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024:
why are we comparing Foster and Razor
Would have thought that was pretty obvious.
Comparing the records of the two most recent All Blacks coaches is a completely legitimate exercise.
Have we traded up like we all thought we were, or have we maintained status quo?
Is this a coach or player issue?
Is Fozzie's 69% to be expected regardless of the man in charge, given Razor's 75%?
As an aside, am surprised at how quickly we seem to have turned on the new messiah. Especially given how ridiculed anyone was who dared question he may in fact not be an instant success (cough @Victor-Meldrew ).
I'm still in the glass is 75% full stage at the moment, and quite confident he can slap together a good team. We beat England deservedly, Fiji was a gimme admittedly, and we gifted Arg the win after we pretty much out performed them.
Which raises the next question: what is success? Reaction to the Arg loss suggests it's about results, reaction to beating England suggests it's about performance. And there's always the caveat about "when we play <insert name here>" all sorts of doom shall be visited upon us.
Some random thoughts for your Saturday morning.
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Great players don't generally make good coaches. Is there any reason, as opposed to "feels", that you think that they will make a difference mentoring?
I know mentoring is a big thing now, but I've never seen it work when imposed from outside, as opposed to occurring organically. I've seen it be a complete waste of time many times.
Mentoring doesn't make a player fitter, faster, more skillful or anything practical. It may affect a person's mentality, but the ABs already have people for that.
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The Crusaders didn't have the best talent when Razor Crusaders won those titles despite what he may think about his players. It was a combo of good coaching, Richie Mo'unga, Sam Whitelock and Scott Barrett.
Your point about the lack of ownership amongst the coaches was a good one. Ryan shouldn't be making comments about Reece when the forwards are being outhustled and Hansen when the defense is leaking a record score at home.
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One interesting thought I have on coaches is sometime coaches are good at a certain level, but not at a higher one? Not in anyway suggesting this case with Razor, just saying it doesn't always work at different levels as different skills can come into play?
Just I always said best club coach I worked with ( I amanaged a few club teams as well as assistant coach at a few), won 3 club titles etc, stepped up too Provincial level, and lasted one season, he said it just he didn't enjoy or found he worked well in different environment.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024:
@junior Why is a retarded argument to say just perhaps we haven't got world beating players. I genuinely don't think we have. although we have good ones, we haven't got more than one or 2 at a push would make a world XV.
My question was why are we comparing Foster and Razor in 2024 AB thread, shouldn't that be elsewhere, Foster has absolutely no say in this team. It's like saying we would of done such and such with McCaw and Carter etc.
I suggesting we look at who we got now and at coached we got now , comparing past does nothing. Where in that post did I suggest you have just any coach because the players aren't as good as they were?You can't honestly say we played to our potential last weekend, whatever argument can be made about personnel. The coaches can blame their players but it's like the craftsman that blames their tools. The team on the pitch should have won that game by 20+, our brainlessness and decline over the 80 minutes was terrible.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024:
One interesting thought I have on coaches is sometime coaches are good at a certain level, but not at a higher one? Not in anyway suggesting this case with Razor, just saying it doesn't always work at different levels as different skills can come into play?
Just I always said best club coach I worked with ( I amanaged a few club teams as well as assistant coach at a few), won 3 club titles etc, stepped up too Provincial level, and lasted one season, he said it just he didn't enjoy or found he worked well in different environment.
The jury is out on Razor as to whether he can make the step up. We shall see, tonight will be a major test early in his tenure
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In a world of comparing foster v razor , if we do that ,
It’s interesting how most just assumed razor would achieve more, I had hoped so too ,
Beating a 69 % win record is achievable, but if the ultimate goal is the wc , the only way of beating a 1 point loss in a final is actually winning it .
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@canefan I actually think the measure will be in SA. I don't think beating the Pumas tonight will make us real good etc.
I agree your point there was just some stupid stuff last week, but is often the case when we lose to lesser teams isn't it? -
@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2024:
@canefan I actually think the measure will be in SA. I don't think beating the Pumas tonight will make us real good etc.
I agree your point there was just some stupid stuff last week, but is often the case when we lose to lesser teams isn't it?SA could get ugly. But if we'd carved out a couple of scratchy wins against the Pumas, after a couple of scratchy wins against England would not have allowed the new lot the pain and potential learning that a loss does. Perhaps the pain and soul searching I expect would have gone on this week will be a blessing in disguise if we end up playing well in the republic
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks 2024:
In a world of comparing foster v razor , if we do that ,
It’s interesting how most just assumed razor would achieve more, I had hoped so too ,
It's a bit early to say he won't!
One major difference between them is that Foster was shit before he joined the AB's. After years of Chiefs failures, as soon as he left they won Super under Rennie. At least Razor has something going in to recommend him. Foster did of course set the precedent by losing to Arg at home too
It will be interesting to see if Razor gets reappointed in a year or two if he has a record like Foster. Would one win in SA save him too?
