RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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@KiwiMurph said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
In addition to discipline our other achilles heel of kicking game came back to bite us.
I remember at least one occasion where Beauden had the opportunity for a 50/22 but didn't pull the trigger. Field position and the ball if that worked.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@W32 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@W32 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow by attacking rugby, do you mean the garryowen and hope someone drops it? 😂
Key to beating SA is to get your noses in front and force them to play. NZ never managed it, so the likes of PSDT, Kwagga and Fourie were able to destroy with majesty.
No point musing if Boks could have played attacking rugby or not. Fact is, they won without having to. Up to everyone else to evolve their games and show their game plan up.
NZ and England’s packs showed what happens when you blunt the Boks up front. The bomb squad did nothing against a NZ 7 + Jordie.
Boks managed to slow down NZ ball to an average 5 seconds. That’s an eternity for a team that plays like NZ. Not having your 7 at the breakdown to clear bodies and secure quick ball really hurt NZ.
Maybe Razor will force the ABs to improve their discipline. It wouldn’t hurt.
To paraphrase Foster, 'horses for courses'
SA played a game they thought would blunt the NZ attack
For the most part it worked
Rock beat scissors
But if you don't think SA can play another way I suggest you watch the URC and the European Cups
The SA teams can run them in as well as the NZ teams
Further to this, after the Ireland win Foster was asked who he would rather have in the final, England or SA. He answered " I don't care".
Right there I thought that we (SA) were going to win....the way he said it suggested to me that he was a little too arrogant about it. That is the old AB mentality, when other teams weren't close. Foster is lazy.This is what is known as diplomacy. You could learn some.
Tell you what, I'll work on my "diplomacy" if you work on your humility...how's that?
And you can look up the word hypocrisy. How's that?
Step away, smell the air outside!
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@W32 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@W32 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@MiketheSnow by attacking rugby, do you mean the garryowen and hope someone drops it? 😂
Key to beating SA is to get your noses in front and force them to play. NZ never managed it, so the likes of PSDT, Kwagga and Fourie were able to destroy with majesty.
No point musing if Boks could have played attacking rugby or not. Fact is, they won without having to. Up to everyone else to evolve their games and show their game plan up.
NZ and England’s packs showed what happens when you blunt the Boks up front. The bomb squad did nothing against a NZ 7 + Jordie.
Boks managed to slow down NZ ball to an average 5 seconds. That’s an eternity for a team that plays like NZ. Not having your 7 at the breakdown to clear bodies and secure quick ball really hurt NZ.
Maybe Razor will force the ABs to improve their discipline. It wouldn’t hurt.
To paraphrase Foster, 'horses for courses'
SA played a game they thought would blunt the NZ attack
For the most part it worked
Rock beat scissors
But if you don't think SA can play another way I suggest you watch the URC and the European Cups
The SA teams can run them in as well as the NZ teams
Further to this, after the Ireland win Foster was asked who he would rather have in the final, England or SA. He answered " I don't care".
Right there I thought that we (SA) were going to win....the way he said it suggested to me that he was a little too arrogant about it. That is the old AB mentality, when other teams weren't close. Foster is lazy.This is what is known as diplomacy. You could learn some.
Tell you what, I'll work on my "diplomacy" if you work on your humility...how's that?
And you can look up the word hypocrisy. How's that?
hmmmmm. Can you point out where I've been a hypocrite? I will admit to trying to "bring the other side" a few times...or trying to point out double standards a few times. Perhaps this went over your head?
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This post is deleted!
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@KiwiMurph the Boks chase and compete on kicks better than we do. Though there were some cases where they were leaping into the space and contacting our defenders in the air. One case where Richie landed on top of Kolbe who was then injured was a clear penalty to us not given.
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@KiwiMurph said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Beauden's opening kickoff was poor (it was neither short and contestable or hanging and deep allowing us pin them back) and then i'm reminded of Beauden in space around halfway in the first half and instead or passing to Jordan outside him he kicked it dead in goal.
This annoyed me a lot. Kickoff that is too deep and flat to contest and lands just over the 22 so it can be kicked straight out over half-way.
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@kev said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@KiwiMurph the Boks chase and compete on kicks better than we do. Though there were some cases where they were leaping into the space and contacting our defenders in the air. One case where Richie landed on top of Kolbe who was then injured was a clear penalty to us not given.
it's their tactic, and it's fucking smart given the make up of their team.
Little pacey wingers running flat out in to the contest and just chucking themselves at it. If the oppoisiotn make a tough catch, no problem. But more likely one of you fumbles in the contest. And that's either you winning the ball, or a scrum. They definitely want a scrum. It's organised chaos
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@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Maybe Razor will force the ABs to improve their discipline. It wouldn’t hurt.
From a penalty count perspective the ABs had an excellent game. The Boks gave away twice as many penalties.
I think we could’ve dealt with the two YCs especially with the Boks getting two of their own, but IMO it was the upgrade to the RC that really took its toll on us.
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@KiwiPie said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@KiwiMurph said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Beauden's opening kickoff was poor (it was neither short and contestable or hanging and deep allowing us pin them back) and then i'm reminded of Beauden in space around halfway in the first half and instead or passing to Jordan outside him he kicked it dead in goal.
This annoyed me a lot. Kickoff that is too deep and flat to contest and lands just over the 22 so it can be kicked straight out over half-way.
And it sucks because there was a period back around 2017-18 that Beaudie used to kick pinpoint restarts and Read would time his run perfectly to knock it back to our side.
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The person doing that in the last couple of years was Clarke. When he went out of the xv nobody replaced that role
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Yup (not the Cane stuff, but the big game management - lack off)
The All Blacks still don't understand World Cups despite what Carter taught them
The second half was all New Zealand which is why in the end they have no excuses to rely on. Once the dam broke and the All Blacks' found a try through Beauden Barrett, the game was there for the taking for the All Blacks.
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@Duluth said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
The person doing that in the last couple of years was Clarke. When he went out of the xv nobody replaced that role
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@KiwiPie said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@KiwiMurph said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Beauden's opening kickoff was poor (it was neither short and contestable or hanging and deep allowing us pin them back) and then i'm reminded of Beauden in space around halfway in the first half and instead or passing to Jordan outside him he kicked it dead in goal.
This annoyed me a lot. Kickoff that is too deep and flat to contest and lands just over the 22 so it can be kicked straight out over half-way.
And it sucks because there was a period back around 2017-18 that Beaudie used to kick pinpoint restarts and Read would time his run perfectly to knock it back to our side.
that just sums up so much of this team...keep doing something even though a key aspect of if isn;t in on the pitch
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@Machpants yea the hard part about this one is we let it slip. We had the momentum, and the opportunities, but didn't take them. It's more deflating than 2019 where I thought we were dominated start to finish.
Even with everything seemingly going against us we still had multiple chances to win.
I hope in this cycle we can resolve this issue and win the last quarter of games again.
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@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
We will miss Joe Schmidt. I have zero confidence in McDonald, but one thing I am sure of with Razor in charge is that we won't be such a stupid team and that our discipline will be far better.
Mo'unga (who didn't take the drop goal according to the article writer linked here) was "too stupid" despite playing for years under Razor. Sam Whitelock gave away a crucial (if unbelievably soft) penalty against England in 2019...
I find it unlikely that these players get dumber or less disciplined because they're in an All Black squad. I'd say it's a by-product of playing SR more than anything because that little competition tends not to reward such behaviours.
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What about red cards in SR because of the 20 minute rule less damage than in a test match so is discipline not as good as NH teams ? again treading back to SR.
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@Chris yeah good point. That additional disparity with the international game surely doesn't help either.
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@Chris said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
What about red cards in SR because of the 20 minute rule less damage than in a test match so is discipline not as good as NH teams ? again treading back to SR.
7 cards for us in the tournament, far and away the most. 2/3 red cards (arguably should have been two out of plenty, but hey).
Our discipline isn't up to it
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@antipodean said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
We will miss Joe Schmidt. I have zero confidence in McDonald, but one thing I am sure of with Razor in charge is that we won't be such a stupid team and that our discipline will be far better.
Mo'unga (who didn't take the drop goal according to the article writer linked here) was "too stupid" despite playing for years under Razor. Sam Whitelock gave away a crucial (if unbelievably soft) penalty against England in 2019...
The drop goal thing I disagree with. We were never close enough to go for a drop goal. Whenever we would threaten to enter their 22, the ball would get turned over and we would miss our chance. Had Ardie not shat the bed and shown some composure by holding on to the ball in the 79th minute instead of throwing the miracle offload, then we could have had a chance to attempt one.
As for Whitelock's penalty, that was so out of character for him and that's the only time I can recall Whitelock screwing up.
I am just basing my opinion on what I see in SR, the Crusaders are a smart team and that doesn't just happen by accident. The Hurricanes, Blues and the Highlanders are incredibly stupid teams with bad decision makers and that doesn't happen by accident either.
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@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
I think you’ve nailed it pretty much. You always expect NZ to play the most intelligent rugby, but the Saffers played smarter on the day imo. Odd, because you clearly have some intelligent players. What’s the issue? Leadership? Coaching?
I think the point everyone is missing is that South Africa were the clearest about what they were trying to do and played knock out rugby - ie they did what they needed to do to win. Take the last 10 minutes. They played as deep in NZ half as possible and hit every tackle, ruck and breakdown like their life depended on it, because thats what they needed to do.
New Zealand couldn’t do it because they haven’t spent 4 years doing it, they, like most teams, haven’t spent 4 years practicing winning the tiny moments. Ireland did, but their game is more technical, more things have to work and they didn’t get to practice the intensity of South Africa then NZ two weeks in a row very often - they tried but they were fucked at the end of the NZ game.
However many decisions went each way - and don’t kid yourself that Barnes and team only went one way, South Africa consistently reacted better. I hate that it’s true.
