RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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@TeWaio completely agree, especially when it comes to cards, refs have been extremely harsh on the ABs while overlooking stuff from the opposition in the same game. It's an ongoing thing - SBs card was such a good example of that - a YC for batting the ball away in his own half? What the fuck? Not a chance another team cops a YC for that. Frizell's YC another great example - how in the hell did they find a card there?! And then in the discussion over whether it should be a red, Barnes said something along the lines of "the YC stays as it was incidental after the cleanout". So basically said, we've reviewed it, and we'll keep it a YC because he got pushed onto someone's leg. That alone was an absolutely outrageous call.
We are the most carded team. Cards make it extremely difficult to win. At least half the cards we get appear to be complete horseshit, and not in line with how other teams are carded.
Is this a conspiracy against the ABs? Not a chance, but there does appear to be a bias against us at the moment. Maybe it's the black?
What @Dodge says is the most important point though. If they are not consistent then some teams will prosper from that, while other teams will get screwed in the biggest games of their lives. That's inevitable with the current application of the laws and brings the game into disrepute.
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@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Call me a chippy kiwi, one-eyed, sore loser etc, but it really winds me up that we seems to be constantly on the wrong side of some really dubious referring decisions over the years.
Yes, we are the most carded international team, but (hear me out) might that be because we are just subconsciously looked at differently than other sides? Don't know why, maybe because we dominated 2004-2017?
Off the top of my head, in rough chronological ordrer:
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Poite's "deal" to decide the 2017 Lions, exact replica of the (correct) call Joubert was pilloried for in the 2015 RWC QF Scot vs Aus. Poite rules it correctly, then has an off-mike conversation with Garces, IN FRENCH, then downgrades the penalty to scrum, presumably to be less controversial. Wtf?
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Lions Test 2, after playing most of the game with 14 we lost it to a penalty at the death, where Sinckler jumped into a tackle to collect an errant pass, and we got penalized. Never seen that before or since in a rugby game. I think there's now a rule that awards a free kick to the defending side if the attacker attempts to jump clean over NFL-style?
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Jordie Barrett's red card vs Aus, where he jumped high to catch a kick and someone just ran into his foot. Not seen that before or since either?
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The stitch up last year vs the Irish, Ta'avo gets done for a red, but a near-identical shot from Porter on Rettalick gets let off with "absorbing soak tackle" - never heard that language before or since!
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Aki high shot vs the Irish not looked at.
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Scott Barrett's yellow against Argentina. Stupid move, but would a ref really card any other team that deep in opposition territory?
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The Final: EDG forearm to the face, not looked at. Etzebeth leading forearm to Cane's head, not looked at despite right in front of the ref. Frizzell carded for being cleaned out onto a random leg he wouldn't have even seen.
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Cane's upgraded to red, harsh for me given Kriel changed direction so suddenly, but fair enough. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander when Kolisi lines up Ardie from 10m back and smokes him head-to-head. Nope, stays yellow. Bad luck guys, 4 more years.
Thank you for indulging me, rant over.
Are you the most carded team in the world or have you just decided you are? England have given away loads of cards in the last 12 months but i don't know what the stats show.
Also, going back to 2017 and that's the best list you can come up with to demonstrate subconscious bias?! I could find as many decisions that went against England this year - but it still wouldn't demonstrate unconscious bias, it would just show that a. referees make mistakes, b. i like to see incidents through rose tinted specs, c. i was only looking at one side of the equation.
Anyway, i understand the frustration with individual decisions, I felt the same about some in the semi. I even understand the 'what if' feeling and the devastation of losing a final against the Boks who I don't like. I just think saying the ref was the reason you lost is a bit silly, saying refs hate you is a bit silly, saying that it definitely would have been different result if one ot two decisions had gone the other way, is a bit silly.
As you were.
I didn't say any of those three things though?
I pointed out a load of really rough decisions we've copped over the past few years, of course I am absolutely biased, and it was mostly cathartic. Plenty of those decisions seem literally exceptional, maybe I don't watch enough rugby outside of the ABs though.
apologies, my first bit was an answer to you, the rest was more of a generic response to some points made above in the thread, lazy of me not to distinguish.
Ah understood, thanks. I take your point that other teams might be able to come up with a similar list of harsh decisions. My list was more the fact that so many of ours seem pretty unprecedented (at least to me). "Soak tackle" - get in the bin.
Not forgetting that the so called absorbing tackle actually broke BBBRs cheek bone. They have to simplify. Any shot above a certain height is a card of whatever type they decide the rule is. Only mitigation is a player ducking into it. I'm no physicist, but absorbing tackle sounds like code for "I don't feel like sending this player off"
In some instances no doubt you’re right, but there is definitely a difference in the velocity of the defender in the tackle and also where the initial impact occurs. Take the Cane v Kolisi v Curry cards.
Cane - upright more or less, high degree of force magnified by Kriel’s speed and direction. Initial impact was shoulder to chin/neck area and subsequent head on head.
Kolisi, all pretty much the same but initial impact was shoulder to shoulder.
Curry - upright but with no real velocity. What there was, was magnified by the jumper descending. Head on head impact.
All three had head on head but all with varying degrees of force, area of impact etc. I’m not arguing about the results, just that there ARE differences and degrees of danger. Add into that, interpretation of the refs and also the TMOs, is it any wonder that we are all left gnashing our teeth when a decision goes against our own team?
For me this illustrates the impossibility of nailing down a law and then trying to make allowances for variances.
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Edit - moved this post to State of the Game as more appropriate there
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@Catogrande the refs being told they have to try and determine the "force" of a head shot is actually a massive problem. You'd need a medical degree and to run some tests to see which head knock is worse - they are just judging it on what it looked like, not how serious it actually was. As you allude to that's going to lead to massive inconsistencies as it is largely subjective at the time.
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If we compare it to the law - when the ref hands out a red card to a player on the pitch he is saying he is guilty until proven innocent. That's back to front.
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OK that's enough ranting, feel better now, back to work
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@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio completely agree, especially when it comes to cards, refs have been extremely harsh on the ABs while overlooking stuff from the opposition in the same game. It's an ongoing thing - SBs card was such a good example of that - a YC for batting the ball away in his own half? What the fuck? Not a chance another team cops a YC for that. Frizell's YC another great example - how in the hell did they find a card there?! And then in the discussion over whether it should be a red, Barnes said something along the lines of "the YC stays as it was incidental after the cleanout". So basically said, we've reviewed it, and we'll keep it a YC because he got pushed onto someone's leg. That alone was an absolutely outrageous call.
We are the most carded team. Cards make it extremely difficult to win. At least half the cards we get appear to be complete horseshit, and not in line with how other teams are carded.
Is this a conspiracy against the ABs? Not a chance, but there does appear to be a bias against us at the moment. Maybe it's the black?
What @Dodge says is the most important point though. If they are not consistent then some teams will prosper from that, while other teams will get screwed in the biggest games of their lives. That's inevitable with the current application of the laws and brings the game into disrepute.
Ironically I think it's because we Kiwis may stamp our feet and drop the bottom lip but we're completely harmless while other nations raise holy hell and that has an impact. I just look back to that Lions decision. Holy fark the world would have exploded if that had been the other way round. Same with 2007. You reckon Barnes would ever been able to step foot in SA if they'd been on the receiving end of that one?
Kind of reminds me of the attitude of a French minister to NZ protests over nuclear testing in pacific. I paraphrase, but it was essentially: "We can live for 6 months without being liked by New Zealanders".
In truth nobody gives a shit what we think, even in a sport we've often dominated.
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@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
If we compare it to the law - when the ref hands out a red card to a player on the pitch he is saying he is guilty until proven innocent. That's back to front.
Yes but if guilty that does not punish the offending team in the game it happened in and does not recompense the team that was on the wrong end of the offence. It just makes it potentially easier for the teams that follow in the ensuing weeks, whilst also allowing the offending team to factor it all in at a later date.
No easy answers.
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@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
If we compare it to the law - when the ref hands out a red card to a player on the pitch he is saying he is guilty until proven innocent. That's back to front.
Yes but if guilty that does not punish the offending team in the game it happened in and does not recompense the team that was on the wrong end of the offence. It just makes it potentially easier for the teams that follow in the ensuing weeks, whilst also allowing the offending team to factor it all in at a later date.
No easy answers.
Surely that is better than what happened on the weekend. The team in the game benefits from the yellow card even if they don't benefit from the red. Plus, everything after the match presumably will be the same? The majority of reds will come with a ban.
As a policy the sport (and lets face it product) should be leaning towards what's best for the game. I doubt anyone, including the Saffas and so called neutrals, would consider the various officiating interpretations on Saturday as what was best for the game.
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@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
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Haranguing refs with hour long videos and insinuating undertones of racism to leverage an advantage. (sure Rassie copped a ban, but the long term effect of that can't be dismissed)
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Whinging about biased refs and in-game injustices (FFS, some (unhinged) Bok supporters still talk about Bryce Lawrence denying them a sure thing in 2011)
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Complaining (mostly media and supporters to be fair) about teams getting away with murder and your own team often being given rough treatment either by refs or the judiciary
has led the Boks to the promised land of back to back rugby world cups led by the most ingenious coaching duo the game has ever seen. (For the record, I really like Nienaber and think he is class. Rassie - if he was your own you love him. If not, he's a fluffybunny of the highest order).
Don't they say one should emulate the best to become the best?
Rassie has opened Pandora's box in the pursuit of glory. Good luck trying to close it back up.
I think the 2017 Lions Tour opened up that Pandora's Box. It all seemed a bit ridiculous the extent that Gatland's team went to to win the series. It was effective in influencing on-field decisions but put me right off !
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@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande the refs being told they have to try and determine the "force" of a head shot is actually a massive problem. You'd need a medical degree and to run some tests to see which head knock is worse - they are just judging it on what it looked like, not how serious it actually was. As you allude to that's going to lead to massive inconsistencies as it is largely subjective at the time.
This is the problem. They aren't doctors. Draw the line in terms of height, only mitigation is the attacker falling into the tackle. Simple
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@canefan but they often seem to get mitigation wrong too in their 7 mins to decide to leave as YC or upgrade to a RC....
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@taniwharugby said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@canefan but they often seem to get mitigation wrong too in their 7 mins to decide to leave as YC or upgrade to a RC....
Because the mitigating factors seem too unclear
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
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Haranguing refs with hour long videos and insinuating undertones of racism to leverage an advantage. (sure Rassie copped a ban, but the long term effect of that can't be dismissed)
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Whinging about biased refs and in-game injustices (FFS, some (unhinged) Bok supporters still talk about Bryce Lawrence denying them a sure thing in 2011)
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Complaining (mostly media and supporters to be fair) about teams getting away with murder and your own team often being given rough treatment either by refs or the judiciary
has led the Boks to the promised land of back to back rugby world cups led by the most ingenious coaching duo the game has ever seen. (For the record, I really like Nienaber and think he is class. Rassie - if he was your own you love him. If not, he's a fluffybunny of the highest order).
Don't they say one should emulate the best to become the best?
Rassie has opened Pandora's box in the pursuit of glory. Good luck trying to close it back up.
I think the 2017 Lions Tour opened up that Pandora's Box. It all seemed a bit ridiculous the extent that Gatland's team went to to win the series. It was effective in influencing on-field decisions but put me right off !
A man with a memory and perspective. Good post.
B&I Lions fans are not going to like hearing this, but for me the media circus around the Lions has been one of the catalysts for all the influence pressure on officials.
Think back to Woodward bringing a spin doctor on the tour to NZ.
Gatland's crew consistently planting stories with the (mostly British) rugby press on how the other team infringes on every tour he has led.I don't know whether it is a desperation to keep the Lions concept alive or just that British press is such a loud voice in rugby media, but every 4 years the hosting nation seems to cop it.
Not condoning what Rassie did, but what his 2021 rant certainly achieved was to shift the pressure off SA and on to the officials not to be influenced by the Lions media circus.
And before anyone / everyone gives me a complete bollocking for the above, do I like how he did it? NO.
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@Billy-Webb ends justify the means.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio completely agree, especially when it comes to cards, refs have been extremely harsh on the ABs while overlooking stuff from the opposition in the same game. It's an ongoing thing - SBs card was such a good example of that - a YC for batting the ball away in his own half? What the fuck? Not a chance another team cops a YC for that. Frizell's YC another great example - how in the hell did they find a card there?! And then in the discussion over whether it should be a red, Barnes said something along the lines of "the YC stays as it was incidental after the cleanout". So basically said, we've reviewed it, and we'll keep it a YC because he got pushed onto someone's leg. That alone was an absolutely outrageous call.
We are the most carded team. Cards make it extremely difficult to win. At least half the cards we get appear to be complete horseshit, and not in line with how other teams are carded.
Is this a conspiracy against the ABs? Not a chance, but there does appear to be a bias against us at the moment. Maybe it's the black?
What @Dodge says is the most important point though. If they are not consistent then some teams will prosper from that, while other teams will get screwed in the biggest games of their lives. That's inevitable with the current application of the laws and brings the game into disrepute.
Ironically I think it's because we Kiwis may stamp our feet and drop the bottom lip but we're completely harmless while other nations raise holy hell and that has an impact. I just look back to that Lions decision. Holy fark the world would have exploded if that had been the other way round. Same with 2007. You reckon Barnes would ever been able to step foot in SA if they'd been on the receiving end of that one?
Kind of reminds me of the attitude of a French minister to NZ protests over nuclear testing in pacific. I paraphrase, but it was essentially: "We can live for 6 months without being liked by New Zealanders".
In truth nobody gives a shit what we think, even in a sport we've often dominated.
This is bang on. We are, as a nation, "nice". Are we too nice? I'd argue no - I've lived abroad for my entire adult life and enjoyed the fact that kiwis are generally liked and well though of everywhere. It is fantastic. If it means we get the short end of the stick around rugby decisions, I'm happy with that. Others might disagree.
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@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Billy-Webb ends justify the means.
Not sure about that
What I am sure about is that it worked for SA. But came at quite a cost to Rassie who before that episode, actually seemed quite liked in general rugby circles around the world. Now... not so much. Except of course completely beloved in SA!
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@Billy-Webb said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Billy-Webb ends justify the means.
Not sure about that
What I am sure about is that it worked for SA. But came at quite a cost to Rassie who before that episode, actually seemed quite liked in general rugby circles around the world. Now... not so much. Except of course completely beloved in SA!
And that's all he cares about, not rugby, not anything but winning. He'll never buy a drink again
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@Billy-Webb tell me, what’s with the rabid pursuit of SA fans to nominate the current Bok team as the greatest ever and Kolisi as the greatest captain ever so soon after a World Cup win?
Personally, they aren’t the best Bok team I’ve seen. That would be the 2007-2009 vintage. PSDT was awesome in the final, but even he’d struggle to dislodge Juan Smith from the 7 jersey.
Back to back is an insane achievement, but the thirst for validation and acknowledgment from Bok fans feels like something else?
Did those years of underachievement leave Bok fans with thin skins? Is it a reaction to foreign media and team coaches who poured scorn on their playing style? Is the outpouring of emotion sheer relief at winning as it deflects away the issues going on in SA right now and shows SA are actually world leading in something?
The Bok team and coaches are unabashedly proud of how they play. So they should. They won 2 world cups. The quest to be seen as the best comes primarily from the SA media and fans.
Intrigued to get a SA perspective from you and any other Bok fans on here.
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Good questions all of those. Will give you my take on them one-by-one.
Other Bok fans here may have their own views.@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Billy-Webb tell me, what’s with the rabid pursuit of SA fans to nominate the current Bok team as the greatest ever and Kolisi as the greatest captain ever so soon after a World Cup win?
I am as bemused by this as you and many others.
My suspicion is that it is a group of somewhat over-excited fans who are pursuing the narrative on social media probably as backlash against the "ugly rugby", you were lucky, you borderline cheat narrative that is also present.
In fairness, no-one in my circle even mentions it - being the best ever. Maybe I just have a more balanced group.Kolisi will be up there with the most revered SA captains, that's for sure. Greatest captain in rugby ever? I am not sure how one even starts to try and measure that.
Personally, they aren’t the best Bok team I’ve seen. That would be the 2007-2009 vintage. PSDT was awesome in the final, but even he’d struggle to dislodge Juan Smith from the 7 jersey.
Again - achieving the back-to-back success is driving this narrative.
For my money 2007-2009 and the 2019 vintage stack up well too.
For what it's worth, I would try and find a way to play both Juan Smith and PSDT if ever it were possible.Back to back is an insane achievement, but the thirst for validation and acknowledgment from Bok fans feels like something else?
Did those years of underachievement leave Bok fans with thin skins? Is it a reaction to foreign media and team coaches who poured scorn on their playing style? Is the outpouring of emotion sheer relief at winning as it deflects away the issues going on in SA right now and shows SA are actually world leading in something?
Yes. To all of the above imo.
It is an overreaction to having something to be proud of, coached and led by people who do it not just for themselves.The Bok team and coaches are unabashedly proud of how they play. So they should. They won 2 world cups. The quest to be seen as the best comes primarily from the SA media and fans.
Intrigued to get a SA perspective from you and any other Bok fans on here.
So broadly:
The fans are proud.
They have something to treasure in a country where bad news sometimes feels like the dominant theme.
It is nice to give the finger to what is perceived as constant negativity and carping from foreign rugby media.Some are just a bit too overexcited to have perspective right now.
But bless them for their enthusiasm.
