RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks
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@nostrildamus said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@pakman said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
You're reaching a bit here mate. You can certainly say France were unlucky lose but equally you can say that if they can't deal with high kicks (not a surprise Saffer tactic) then well, were they really unlucky. Either way SA did enough to win that match. Four tries wasn't it?
It's actually clear cut. The replays show that for winning penalty Kwagga put his right hand on ground for support before trying to effect the turnover. So France should have been kicking for poles instead of Boks. Boks 'won' by one point.
That's with ten to go, so pretty strong likelihood that French would have won by two or more.
a few posts above which reflect but for a decision the other way the ABs / England / France would have beaten the Boks. It misses a vital point, that South Africa did what they had to do to win. Had the penalty against Smith gone the other way in both of the last two games, who's to say SA wouldn't have gone up the other end to score? They were infront in the final, and they played basically no risk rugby, had they needed to score, who knows what they would have done. Against England they were 9 points down with 10 mins or so to go, they did what they needed to do to get infront.
Its easy to dismiss 3, 1 point wins as lucky but its funny how often those 1 point wins fall the way of the team who are better / better at winning.
Similarly, people suggest that NZ would have won had they not had discipline issues (something we England fans have said about England over the last few years) - it ignores the fact that discipline issues come from pressure and playing at a level you're not comfortable sustaining. The Boks defensive and forward intensity and ability to play at that level consistently is almost unrivalled - Ireland have done it for the last 2 years but choked slightly in the quarter final. Most of the Bok penalties conceded in the final were intentional / a calculated risk.
In fact NZ gave away far fewer penalties than SA. And in terms of player safety Kolisi's tackle, which was was always going to involve head contact with Savea, was no better than Cane's. Without his reappearance Boks were finished.
We can argue till the cows come home, but it's pretty clear that arbitrary TMO decisions decided the final, and faulty reffing decisions ended the run of France. I thought England were desparately unlucky with a couple of scrum calls, but it was apparent that Boks finishers were too hot for theirs to handle.
Perhaps the common ground is that, if we're having the premier event in the rugby calendar we need to find a way to ensure that dodgy decisions don't alter the final result.
IMO the TMO was a blight on the tournament and the fans would have been better without it.
Should the TMO be involved as much? Not sure to be honest. I prefer accurate decisions to obvious mistakes being waived on because the ref missed them, I accept that a balance is tough to strike though.
It’s not pretty clear to me that refereeing decisions DECIDED the final, affected it sure, but decided it? Not for me, we can disagree on that if you like but it strikes me a strange position to take given you missed a penalty in the last few minutes.
I think the decison were worth, say, eight points. That ABs got to within one tells you everything about the true merits of the teams.
I mean that's just silly, one thing changes, everything changes. You play the game as it stands throughout the game, you don't play it based on things that could have happened. South Africa played rugby the way they did because they were infront. We have literally no idea how they would have played otherwise.
um they have been behind in other games before so yes I think we do know how they play.
i can't work out if you're being obtuse or you don't understand a very simple point.
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@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Call me a chippy kiwi, one-eyed, sore loser etc, but it really winds me up that we seems to be constantly on the wrong side of some really dubious referring decisions over the years.
Yes, we are the most carded international team, but (hear me out) might that be because we are just subconsciously looked at differently than other sides? Don't know why, maybe because we dominated 2004-2017?
Off the top of my head, in rough chronological ordrer:
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Poite's "deal" to decide the 2017 Lions, exact replica of the (correct) call Joubert was pilloried for in the 2015 RWC QF Scot vs Aus. Poite rules it correctly, then has an off-mike conversation with Garces, IN FRENCH, then downgrades the penalty to scrum, presumably to be less controversial. Wtf?
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Lions Test 2, after playing most of the game with 14 we lost it to a penalty at the death, where Sinckler jumped into a tackle to collect an errant pass, and we got penalized. Never seen that before or since in a rugby game. I think there's now a rule that awards a free kick to the defending side if the attacker attempts to jump clean over NFL-style?
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Jordie Barrett's red card vs Aus, where he jumped high to catch a kick and someone just ran into his foot. Not seen that before or since either?
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The stitch up last year vs the Irish, Ta'avo gets done for a red, but a near-identical shot from Porter on Rettalick gets let off with "absorbing soak tackle" - never heard that language before or since!
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Aki high shot vs the Irish not looked at.
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Scott Barrett's yellow against Argentina. Stupid move, but would a ref really card any other team that deep in opposition territory?
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The Final: EDG forearm to the face, not looked at. Etzebeth leading forearm to Cane's head, not looked at despite right in front of the ref. Frizzell carded for being cleaned out onto a random leg he wouldn't have even seen.
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Cane's upgraded to red, harsh for me given Kriel changed direction so suddenly, but fair enough. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander when Kolisi lines up Ardie from 10m back and smokes him head-to-head. Nope, stays yellow. Bad luck guys, 4 more years.
Thank you for indulging me, rant over.
Are you the most carded team in the world or have you just decided you are? England have given away loads of cards in the last 12 months but i don't know what the stats show.
Also, going back to 2017 and that's the best list you can come up with to demonstrate subconscious bias?! I could find as many decisions that went against England this year - but it still wouldn't demonstrate unconscious bias, it would just show that a. referees make mistakes, b. i like to see incidents through rose tinted specs, c. i was only looking at one side of the equation.
Anyway, i understand the frustration with individual decisions, I felt the same about some in the semi. I even understand the 'what if' feeling and the devastation of losing a final against the Boks who I don't like. I just think saying the ref was the reason you lost is a bit silly, saying refs hate you is a bit silly, saying that it definitely would have been different result if one ot two decisions had gone the other way, is a bit silly.
As you were.
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@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Call me a chippy kiwi, one-eyed, sore loser etc, but it really winds me up that we seems to be constantly on the wrong side of some really dubious referring decisions over the years.
Yes, we are the most carded international team, but (hear me out) might that be because we are just subconsciously looked at differently than other sides? Don't know why, maybe because we dominated 2004-2017?
Off the top of my head, in rough chronological ordrer:
-
Poite's "deal" to decide the 2017 Lions, exact replica of the (correct) call Joubert was pilloried for in the 2015 RWC QF Scot vs Aus. Poite rules it correctly, then has an off-mike conversation with Garces, IN FRENCH, then downgrades the penalty to scrum, presumably to be less controversial. Wtf?
-
Lions Test 2, after playing most of the game with 14 we lost it to a penalty at the death, where Sinckler jumped into a tackle to collect an errant pass, and we got penalized. Never seen that before or since in a rugby game. I think there's now a rule that awards a free kick to the defending side if the attacker attempts to jump clean over NFL-style?
-
Jordie Barrett's red card vs Aus, where he jumped high to catch a kick and someone just ran into his foot. Not seen that before or since either?
-
The stitch up last year vs the Irish, Ta'avo gets done for a red, but a near-identical shot from Porter on Rettalick gets let off with "absorbing soak tackle" - never heard that language before or since!
-
Aki high shot vs the Irish not looked at.
-
Scott Barrett's yellow against Argentina. Stupid move, but would a ref really card any other team that deep in opposition territory?
-
The Final: EDG forearm to the face, not looked at. Etzebeth leading forearm to Cane's head, not looked at despite right in front of the ref. Frizzell carded for being cleaned out onto a random leg he wouldn't have even seen.
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Cane's upgraded to red, harsh for me given Kriel changed direction so suddenly, but fair enough. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander when Kolisi lines up Ardie from 10m back and smokes him head-to-head. Nope, stays yellow. Bad luck guys, 4 more years.
Thank you for indulging me, rant over.
Are you the most carded team in the world or have you just decided you are? England have given away loads of cards in the last 12 months but i don't know what the stats show.
Also, going back to 2017 and that's the best list you can come up with to demonstrate subconscious bias?! I could find as many decisions that went against England this year - but it still wouldn't demonstrate unconscious bias, it would just show that a. referees make mistakes, b. i like to see incidents through rose tinted specs, c. i was only looking at one side of the equation.
Anyway, i understand the frustration with individual decisions, I felt the same about some in the semi. I even understand the 'what if' feeling and the devastation of losing a final against the Boks who I don't like. I just think saying the ref was the reason you lost is a bit silly, saying refs hate you is a bit silly, saying that it definitely would have been different result if one ot two decisions had gone the other way, is a bit silly.
As you were.
I didn't say any of those three things though?
I pointed out a load of really rough decisions we've copped over the past few years, of course I am absolutely biased, and it was mostly cathartic. However, plenty of those decisions seem literally exceptional - maybe I don't watch enough rugby outside of the ABs for context though.
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@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Call me a chippy kiwi, one-eyed, sore loser etc, but it really winds me up that we seems to be constantly on the wrong side of some really dubious referring decisions over the years.
Yes, we are the most carded international team, but (hear me out) might that be because we are just subconsciously looked at differently than other sides? Don't know why, maybe because we dominated 2004-2017?
Off the top of my head, in rough chronological ordrer:
-
Poite's "deal" to decide the 2017 Lions, exact replica of the (correct) call Joubert was pilloried for in the 2015 RWC QF Scot vs Aus. Poite rules it correctly, then has an off-mike conversation with Garces, IN FRENCH, then downgrades the penalty to scrum, presumably to be less controversial. Wtf?
-
Lions Test 2, after playing most of the game with 14 we lost it to a penalty at the death, where Sinckler jumped into a tackle to collect an errant pass, and we got penalized. Never seen that before or since in a rugby game. I think there's now a rule that awards a free kick to the defending side if the attacker attempts to jump clean over NFL-style?
-
Jordie Barrett's red card vs Aus, where he jumped high to catch a kick and someone just ran into his foot. Not seen that before or since either?
-
The stitch up last year vs the Irish, Ta'avo gets done for a red, but a near-identical shot from Porter on Rettalick gets let off with "absorbing soak tackle" - never heard that language before or since!
-
Aki high shot vs the Irish not looked at.
-
Scott Barrett's yellow against Argentina. Stupid move, but would a ref really card any other team that deep in opposition territory?
-
The Final: EDG forearm to the face, not looked at. Etzebeth leading forearm to Cane's head, not looked at despite right in front of the ref. Frizzell carded for being cleaned out onto a random leg he wouldn't have even seen.
-
Cane's upgraded to red, harsh for me given Kriel changed direction so suddenly, but fair enough. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander when Kolisi lines up Ardie from 10m back and smokes him head-to-head. Nope, stays yellow. Bad luck guys, 4 more years.
Thank you for indulging me, rant over.
Are you the most carded team in the world or have you just decided you are? England have given away loads of cards in the last 12 months but i don't know what the stats show.
Also, going back to 2017 and that's the best list you can come up with to demonstrate subconscious bias?! I could find as many decisions that went against England this year - but it still wouldn't demonstrate unconscious bias, it would just show that a. referees make mistakes, b. i like to see incidents through rose tinted specs, c. i was only looking at one side of the equation.
Anyway, i understand the frustration with individual decisions, I felt the same about some in the semi. I even understand the 'what if' feeling and the devastation of losing a final against the Boks who I don't like. I just think saying the ref was the reason you lost is a bit silly, saying refs hate you is a bit silly, saying that it definitely would have been different result if one ot two decisions had gone the other way, is a bit silly.
As you were.
I didn't say any of those three things though?
I pointed out a load of really rough decisions we've copped over the past few years, of course I am absolutely biased, and it was mostly cathartic. Plenty of those decisions seem literally exceptional, maybe I don't watch enough rugby outside of the ABs though.
apologies, my first bit was an answer to you, the rest was more of a generic response to some points made above in the thread, lazy of me not to distinguish.
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@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Call me a chippy kiwi, one-eyed, sore loser etc, but it really winds me up that we seems to be constantly on the wrong side of some really dubious referring decisions over the years.
Yes, we are the most carded international team, but (hear me out) might that be because we are just subconsciously looked at differently than other sides? Don't know why, maybe because we dominated 2004-2017?
Off the top of my head, in rough chronological ordrer:
-
Poite's "deal" to decide the 2017 Lions, exact replica of the (correct) call Joubert was pilloried for in the 2015 RWC QF Scot vs Aus. Poite rules it correctly, then has an off-mike conversation with Garces, IN FRENCH, then downgrades the penalty to scrum, presumably to be less controversial. Wtf?
-
Lions Test 2, after playing most of the game with 14 we lost it to a penalty at the death, where Sinckler jumped into a tackle to collect an errant pass, and we got penalized. Never seen that before or since in a rugby game. I think there's now a rule that awards a free kick to the defending side if the attacker attempts to jump clean over NFL-style?
-
Jordie Barrett's red card vs Aus, where he jumped high to catch a kick and someone just ran into his foot. Not seen that before or since either?
-
The stitch up last year vs the Irish, Ta'avo gets done for a red, but a near-identical shot from Porter on Rettalick gets let off with "absorbing soak tackle" - never heard that language before or since!
-
Aki high shot vs the Irish not looked at.
-
Scott Barrett's yellow against Argentina. Stupid move, but would a ref really card any other team that deep in opposition territory?
-
The Final: EDG forearm to the face, not looked at. Etzebeth leading forearm to Cane's head, not looked at despite right in front of the ref. Frizzell carded for being cleaned out onto a random leg he wouldn't have even seen.
-
Cane's upgraded to red, harsh for me given Kriel changed direction so suddenly, but fair enough. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander when Kolisi lines up Ardie from 10m back and smokes him head-to-head. Nope, stays yellow. Bad luck guys, 4 more years.
Thank you for indulging me, rant over.
Are you the most carded team in the world or have you just decided you are? England have given away loads of cards in the last 12 months but i don't know what the stats show.
Also, going back to 2017 and that's the best list you can come up with to demonstrate subconscious bias?! I could find as many decisions that went against England this year - but it still wouldn't demonstrate unconscious bias, it would just show that a. referees make mistakes, b. i like to see incidents through rose tinted specs, c. i was only looking at one side of the equation.
Anyway, i understand the frustration with individual decisions, I felt the same about some in the semi. I even understand the 'what if' feeling and the devastation of losing a final against the Boks who I don't like. I just think saying the ref was the reason you lost is a bit silly, saying refs hate you is a bit silly, saying that it definitely would have been different result if one ot two decisions had gone the other way, is a bit silly.
As you were.
I didn't say any of those three things though?
I pointed out a load of really rough decisions we've copped over the past few years, of course I am absolutely biased, and it was mostly cathartic. Plenty of those decisions seem literally exceptional, maybe I don't watch enough rugby outside of the ABs though.
apologies, my first bit was an answer to you, the rest was more of a generic response to some points made above in the thread, lazy of me not to distinguish.
Ah understood, thanks. I take your point that other teams might be able to come up with a similar list of harsh decisions. My list was more the fact that so many of ours seem pretty unprecedented (at least to me). "Soak tackle" - get in the bin.
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Haranguing refs with hour long videos and insinuating undertones of racism to leverage an advantage. (sure Rassie copped a ban, but the long term effect of that can't be dismissed)
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Whinging about biased refs and in-game injustices (FFS, some (unhinged) Bok supporters still talk about Bryce Lawrence denying them a sure thing in 2011)
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Complaining (mostly media and supporters to be fair) about teams getting away with murder and your own team often being given rough treatment either by refs or the judiciary
has led the Boks to the promised land of back to back rugby world cups led by the most ingenious coaching duo the game has ever seen. (For the record, I really like Nienaber and think he is class. Rassie - if he was your own you love him. If not, he's a fluffybunny of the highest order).
Don't they say one should emulate the best to become the best?
Rassie has opened Pandora's box in the pursuit of glory. Good luck trying to close it back up.
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@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Call me a chippy kiwi, one-eyed, sore loser etc, but it really winds me up that we seems to be constantly on the wrong side of some really dubious referring decisions over the years.
Yes, we are the most carded international team, but (hear me out) might that be because we are just subconsciously looked at differently than other sides? Don't know why, maybe because we dominated 2004-2017?
Off the top of my head, in rough chronological ordrer:
-
Poite's "deal" to decide the 2017 Lions, exact replica of the (correct) call Joubert was pilloried for in the 2015 RWC QF Scot vs Aus. Poite rules it correctly, then has an off-mike conversation with Garces, IN FRENCH, then downgrades the penalty to scrum, presumably to be less controversial. Wtf?
-
Lions Test 2, after playing most of the game with 14 we lost it to a penalty at the death, where Sinckler jumped into a tackle to collect an errant pass, and we got penalized. Never seen that before or since in a rugby game. I think there's now a rule that awards a free kick to the defending side if the attacker attempts to jump clean over NFL-style?
-
Jordie Barrett's red card vs Aus, where he jumped high to catch a kick and someone just ran into his foot. Not seen that before or since either?
-
The stitch up last year vs the Irish, Ta'avo gets done for a red, but a near-identical shot from Porter on Rettalick gets let off with "absorbing soak tackle" - never heard that language before or since!
-
Aki high shot vs the Irish not looked at.
-
Scott Barrett's yellow against Argentina. Stupid move, but would a ref really card any other team that deep in opposition territory?
-
The Final: EDG forearm to the face, not looked at. Etzebeth leading forearm to Cane's head, not looked at despite right in front of the ref. Frizzell carded for being cleaned out onto a random leg he wouldn't have even seen.
-
Cane's upgraded to red, harsh for me given Kriel changed direction so suddenly, but fair enough. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander when Kolisi lines up Ardie from 10m back and smokes him head-to-head. Nope, stays yellow. Bad luck guys, 4 more years.
Thank you for indulging me, rant over.
Are you the most carded team in the world or have you just decided you are? England have given away loads of cards in the last 12 months but i don't know what the stats show.
Also, going back to 2017 and that's the best list you can come up with to demonstrate subconscious bias?! I could find as many decisions that went against England this year - but it still wouldn't demonstrate unconscious bias, it would just show that a. referees make mistakes, b. i like to see incidents through rose tinted specs, c. i was only looking at one side of the equation.
Anyway, i understand the frustration with individual decisions, I felt the same about some in the semi. I even understand the 'what if' feeling and the devastation of losing a final against the Boks who I don't like. I just think saying the ref was the reason you lost is a bit silly, saying refs hate you is a bit silly, saying that it definitely would have been different result if one ot two decisions had gone the other way, is a bit silly.
As you were.
I didn't say any of those three things though?
I pointed out a load of really rough decisions we've copped over the past few years, of course I am absolutely biased, and it was mostly cathartic. Plenty of those decisions seem literally exceptional, maybe I don't watch enough rugby outside of the ABs though.
apologies, my first bit was an answer to you, the rest was more of a generic response to some points made above in the thread, lazy of me not to distinguish.
Ah understood, thanks. I take your point that other teams might be able to come up with a similar list of harsh decisions. My list was more the fact that so many of ours seem pretty unprecedented (at least to me). "Soak tackle" - get in the bin.
interesting, i would say that i'm pretty familiar with that concept - from what i saw in the Gallagher Prem last year. Being passive in contact comes under the level of force in the tackle etc
I think the reffing of high shots in the Premiership was so much clearer than anything i saw in Super Rugby this season and anything i've seen in the World Cup. I posted something on twitter back in March following a head shot in a Rebels game, suggesting we were heading for horrible inconsistencies in the world cup given how differently it was reffed and talked about by the commentators to everything we were seeing up North - both Kolisi and Cane would have been sent off in the GP last season, can't say i'm happy about being right.
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@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Call me a chippy kiwi, one-eyed, sore loser etc, but it really winds me up that we seems to be constantly on the wrong side of some really dubious referring decisions over the years.
Yes, we are the most carded international team, but (hear me out) might that be because we are just subconsciously looked at differently than other sides? Don't know why, maybe because we dominated 2004-2017?
Off the top of my head, in rough chronological ordrer:
-
Poite's "deal" to decide the 2017 Lions, exact replica of the (correct) call Joubert was pilloried for in the 2015 RWC QF Scot vs Aus. Poite rules it correctly, then has an off-mike conversation with Garces, IN FRENCH, then downgrades the penalty to scrum, presumably to be less controversial. Wtf?
-
Lions Test 2, after playing most of the game with 14 we lost it to a penalty at the death, where Sinckler jumped into a tackle to collect an errant pass, and we got penalized. Never seen that before or since in a rugby game. I think there's now a rule that awards a free kick to the defending side if the attacker attempts to jump clean over NFL-style?
-
Jordie Barrett's red card vs Aus, where he jumped high to catch a kick and someone just ran into his foot. Not seen that before or since either?
-
The stitch up last year vs the Irish, Ta'avo gets done for a red, but a near-identical shot from Porter on Rettalick gets let off with "absorbing soak tackle" - never heard that language before or since!
-
Aki high shot vs the Irish not looked at.
-
Scott Barrett's yellow against Argentina. Stupid move, but would a ref really card any other team that deep in opposition territory?
-
The Final: EDG forearm to the face, not looked at. Etzebeth leading forearm to Cane's head, not looked at despite right in front of the ref. Frizzell carded for being cleaned out onto a random leg he wouldn't have even seen.
-
Cane's upgraded to red, harsh for me given Kriel changed direction so suddenly, but fair enough. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander when Kolisi lines up Ardie from 10m back and smokes him head-to-head. Nope, stays yellow. Bad luck guys, 4 more years.
Thank you for indulging me, rant over.
Are you the most carded team in the world or have you just decided you are? England have given away loads of cards in the last 12 months but i don't know what the stats show.
Also, going back to 2017 and that's the best list you can come up with to demonstrate subconscious bias?! I could find as many decisions that went against England this year - but it still wouldn't demonstrate unconscious bias, it would just show that a. referees make mistakes, b. i like to see incidents through rose tinted specs, c. i was only looking at one side of the equation.
Anyway, i understand the frustration with individual decisions, I felt the same about some in the semi. I even understand the 'what if' feeling and the devastation of losing a final against the Boks who I don't like. I just think saying the ref was the reason you lost is a bit silly, saying refs hate you is a bit silly, saying that it definitely would have been different result if one ot two decisions had gone the other way, is a bit silly.
As you were.
I didn't say any of those three things though?
I pointed out a load of really rough decisions we've copped over the past few years, of course I am absolutely biased, and it was mostly cathartic. Plenty of those decisions seem literally exceptional, maybe I don't watch enough rugby outside of the ABs though.
apologies, my first bit was an answer to you, the rest was more of a generic response to some points made above in the thread, lazy of me not to distinguish.
Ah understood, thanks. I take your point that other teams might be able to come up with a similar list of harsh decisions. My list was more the fact that so many of ours seem pretty unprecedented (at least to me). "Soak tackle" - get in the bin.
Not forgetting that the so called absorbing tackle actually broke BBBRs cheek bone. They have to simplify. Any shot above a certain height is a card of whatever type they decide the rule is. Only mitigation is a player ducking into it. I'm no physicist, but absorbing tackle sounds like code for "I don't feel like sending this player off"
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@TeWaio completely agree, especially when it comes to cards, refs have been extremely harsh on the ABs while overlooking stuff from the opposition in the same game. It's an ongoing thing - SBs card was such a good example of that - a YC for batting the ball away in his own half? What the fuck? Not a chance another team cops a YC for that. Frizell's YC another great example - how in the hell did they find a card there?! And then in the discussion over whether it should be a red, Barnes said something along the lines of "the YC stays as it was incidental after the cleanout". So basically said, we've reviewed it, and we'll keep it a YC because he got pushed onto someone's leg. That alone was an absolutely outrageous call.
We are the most carded team. Cards make it extremely difficult to win. At least half the cards we get appear to be complete horseshit, and not in line with how other teams are carded.
Is this a conspiracy against the ABs? Not a chance, but there does appear to be a bias against us at the moment. Maybe it's the black?
What @Dodge says is the most important point though. If they are not consistent then some teams will prosper from that, while other teams will get screwed in the biggest games of their lives. That's inevitable with the current application of the laws and brings the game into disrepute.
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@canefan said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Dodge said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
Call me a chippy kiwi, one-eyed, sore loser etc, but it really winds me up that we seems to be constantly on the wrong side of some really dubious referring decisions over the years.
Yes, we are the most carded international team, but (hear me out) might that be because we are just subconsciously looked at differently than other sides? Don't know why, maybe because we dominated 2004-2017?
Off the top of my head, in rough chronological ordrer:
-
Poite's "deal" to decide the 2017 Lions, exact replica of the (correct) call Joubert was pilloried for in the 2015 RWC QF Scot vs Aus. Poite rules it correctly, then has an off-mike conversation with Garces, IN FRENCH, then downgrades the penalty to scrum, presumably to be less controversial. Wtf?
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Lions Test 2, after playing most of the game with 14 we lost it to a penalty at the death, where Sinckler jumped into a tackle to collect an errant pass, and we got penalized. Never seen that before or since in a rugby game. I think there's now a rule that awards a free kick to the defending side if the attacker attempts to jump clean over NFL-style?
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Jordie Barrett's red card vs Aus, where he jumped high to catch a kick and someone just ran into his foot. Not seen that before or since either?
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The stitch up last year vs the Irish, Ta'avo gets done for a red, but a near-identical shot from Porter on Rettalick gets let off with "absorbing soak tackle" - never heard that language before or since!
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Aki high shot vs the Irish not looked at.
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Scott Barrett's yellow against Argentina. Stupid move, but would a ref really card any other team that deep in opposition territory?
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The Final: EDG forearm to the face, not looked at. Etzebeth leading forearm to Cane's head, not looked at despite right in front of the ref. Frizzell carded for being cleaned out onto a random leg he wouldn't have even seen.
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Cane's upgraded to red, harsh for me given Kriel changed direction so suddenly, but fair enough. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander when Kolisi lines up Ardie from 10m back and smokes him head-to-head. Nope, stays yellow. Bad luck guys, 4 more years.
Thank you for indulging me, rant over.
Are you the most carded team in the world or have you just decided you are? England have given away loads of cards in the last 12 months but i don't know what the stats show.
Also, going back to 2017 and that's the best list you can come up with to demonstrate subconscious bias?! I could find as many decisions that went against England this year - but it still wouldn't demonstrate unconscious bias, it would just show that a. referees make mistakes, b. i like to see incidents through rose tinted specs, c. i was only looking at one side of the equation.
Anyway, i understand the frustration with individual decisions, I felt the same about some in the semi. I even understand the 'what if' feeling and the devastation of losing a final against the Boks who I don't like. I just think saying the ref was the reason you lost is a bit silly, saying refs hate you is a bit silly, saying that it definitely would have been different result if one ot two decisions had gone the other way, is a bit silly.
As you were.
I didn't say any of those three things though?
I pointed out a load of really rough decisions we've copped over the past few years, of course I am absolutely biased, and it was mostly cathartic. Plenty of those decisions seem literally exceptional, maybe I don't watch enough rugby outside of the ABs though.
apologies, my first bit was an answer to you, the rest was more of a generic response to some points made above in the thread, lazy of me not to distinguish.
Ah understood, thanks. I take your point that other teams might be able to come up with a similar list of harsh decisions. My list was more the fact that so many of ours seem pretty unprecedented (at least to me). "Soak tackle" - get in the bin.
Not forgetting that the so called absorbing tackle actually broke BBBRs cheek bone. They have to simplify. Any shot above a certain height is a card of whatever type they decide the rule is. Only mitigation is a player ducking into it. I'm no physicist, but absorbing tackle sounds like code for "I don't feel like sending this player off"
In some instances no doubt you’re right, but there is definitely a difference in the velocity of the defender in the tackle and also where the initial impact occurs. Take the Cane v Kolisi v Curry cards.
Cane - upright more or less, high degree of force magnified by Kriel’s speed and direction. Initial impact was shoulder to chin/neck area and subsequent head on head.
Kolisi, all pretty much the same but initial impact was shoulder to shoulder.
Curry - upright but with no real velocity. What there was, was magnified by the jumper descending. Head on head impact.
All three had head on head but all with varying degrees of force, area of impact etc. I’m not arguing about the results, just that there ARE differences and degrees of danger. Add into that, interpretation of the refs and also the TMOs, is it any wonder that we are all left gnashing our teeth when a decision goes against our own team?
For me this illustrates the impossibility of nailing down a law and then trying to make allowances for variances.
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Edit - moved this post to State of the Game as more appropriate there
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@Catogrande the refs being told they have to try and determine the "force" of a head shot is actually a massive problem. You'd need a medical degree and to run some tests to see which head knock is worse - they are just judging it on what it looked like, not how serious it actually was. As you allude to that's going to lead to massive inconsistencies as it is largely subjective at the time.
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If we compare it to the law - when the ref hands out a red card to a player on the pitch he is saying he is guilty until proven innocent. That's back to front.
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OK that's enough ranting, feel better now, back to work
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@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@TeWaio completely agree, especially when it comes to cards, refs have been extremely harsh on the ABs while overlooking stuff from the opposition in the same game. It's an ongoing thing - SBs card was such a good example of that - a YC for batting the ball away in his own half? What the fuck? Not a chance another team cops a YC for that. Frizell's YC another great example - how in the hell did they find a card there?! And then in the discussion over whether it should be a red, Barnes said something along the lines of "the YC stays as it was incidental after the cleanout". So basically said, we've reviewed it, and we'll keep it a YC because he got pushed onto someone's leg. That alone was an absolutely outrageous call.
We are the most carded team. Cards make it extremely difficult to win. At least half the cards we get appear to be complete horseshit, and not in line with how other teams are carded.
Is this a conspiracy against the ABs? Not a chance, but there does appear to be a bias against us at the moment. Maybe it's the black?
What @Dodge says is the most important point though. If they are not consistent then some teams will prosper from that, while other teams will get screwed in the biggest games of their lives. That's inevitable with the current application of the laws and brings the game into disrepute.
Ironically I think it's because we Kiwis may stamp our feet and drop the bottom lip but we're completely harmless while other nations raise holy hell and that has an impact. I just look back to that Lions decision. Holy fark the world would have exploded if that had been the other way round. Same with 2007. You reckon Barnes would ever been able to step foot in SA if they'd been on the receiving end of that one?
Kind of reminds me of the attitude of a French minister to NZ protests over nuclear testing in pacific. I paraphrase, but it was essentially: "We can live for 6 months without being liked by New Zealanders".
In truth nobody gives a shit what we think, even in a sport we've often dominated.
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@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
If we compare it to the law - when the ref hands out a red card to a player on the pitch he is saying he is guilty until proven innocent. That's back to front.
Yes but if guilty that does not punish the offending team in the game it happened in and does not recompense the team that was on the wrong end of the offence. It just makes it potentially easier for the teams that follow in the ensuing weeks, whilst also allowing the offending team to factor it all in at a later date.
No easy answers.
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@Catogrande said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
If we compare it to the law - when the ref hands out a red card to a player on the pitch he is saying he is guilty until proven innocent. That's back to front.
Yes but if guilty that does not punish the offending team in the game it happened in and does not recompense the team that was on the wrong end of the offence. It just makes it potentially easier for the teams that follow in the ensuing weeks, whilst also allowing the offending team to factor it all in at a later date.
No easy answers.
Surely that is better than what happened on the weekend. The team in the game benefits from the yellow card even if they don't benefit from the red. Plus, everything after the match presumably will be the same? The majority of reds will come with a ban.
As a policy the sport (and lets face it product) should be leaning towards what's best for the game. I doubt anyone, including the Saffas and so called neutrals, would consider the various officiating interpretations on Saturday as what was best for the game.
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@stodders said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
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Haranguing refs with hour long videos and insinuating undertones of racism to leverage an advantage. (sure Rassie copped a ban, but the long term effect of that can't be dismissed)
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Whinging about biased refs and in-game injustices (FFS, some (unhinged) Bok supporters still talk about Bryce Lawrence denying them a sure thing in 2011)
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Complaining (mostly media and supporters to be fair) about teams getting away with murder and your own team often being given rough treatment either by refs or the judiciary
has led the Boks to the promised land of back to back rugby world cups led by the most ingenious coaching duo the game has ever seen. (For the record, I really like Nienaber and think he is class. Rassie - if he was your own you love him. If not, he's a fluffybunny of the highest order).
Don't they say one should emulate the best to become the best?
Rassie has opened Pandora's box in the pursuit of glory. Good luck trying to close it back up.
I think the 2017 Lions Tour opened up that Pandora's Box. It all seemed a bit ridiculous the extent that Gatland's team went to to win the series. It was effective in influencing on-field decisions but put me right off !
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@No-Quarter said in RWC Final: All Blacks v Springboks:
@Catogrande the refs being told they have to try and determine the "force" of a head shot is actually a massive problem. You'd need a medical degree and to run some tests to see which head knock is worse - they are just judging it on what it looked like, not how serious it actually was. As you allude to that's going to lead to massive inconsistencies as it is largely subjective at the time.
This is the problem. They aren't doctors. Draw the line in terms of height, only mitigation is the attacker falling into the tackle. Simple
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@canefan but they often seem to get mitigation wrong too in their 7 mins to decide to leave as YC or upgrade to a RC....
