All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Machpants said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@antipodean if foster just stopped his tactic fucking about in the 22 as default, even against set defences, I would feel much better. That is a killer, works versus minnows and a loose Australia. It worked beyond belief this year versus SA, but that realty is an anomaly. But it is dumb as fuck play, and I hope to never see it again as default. That's not brain fwrts, or poor execution by the players. It is a default 'exit strategy' under foster.
Defences expect to have the ball kicked from the 22, so the further you kick it to them, the easier it is to carry the ball back and find space on the return. If you don't have an overly dominating lineout, you're often just giving the ball back to them around the 40 anyway. Contestable kicks are statistically a better option. That's why most teams do them, including the top five ranked nations.
Any reason why we don't kick for touch from our 22 to say the half way line, then pressure the lineout? Would that not be a statistically better option? At worst the opposition gets the ball on your 50, best option you get it. These silly bombs often end up with the opposition with the ball close to our 22.
I'd be interested in seeing the stats because either we're operating under confirmation bias or the data analysts aren't providing the information to the coaching staff. Or they maybe are and that means the coaches collectively believe better execution will change the game in their favour.
> Our kicks appear to be inaccurate to my eye more often than they should. That no man's land between long and contestable.
Yeah this is what effs me to tears. At least make the damn thing contestable. It seems most of time the chasers barely have time to get near the ball or tackle the recipient let alone actively contest it. Maybe it works in theory, but in practice its a disaster.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
i may have made this up, doesnt Jordie have a big boot?
He used to have. Probably still in the top part of NZ kickers but that isn't saying too much. I wonder if there is a dearth of good kicking coaches in NZ.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@kev said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
Probably because the Blues spend so much time defending because of
Average number of tackles attempted per game shows the Blues actually defended less per match
I think the kicking stats are exactly what they appear to be. McKenzie kicked further than anyone else & Mou'nga gets credit for things he doesn't do
Agree, RM does not tend to kick long for the Saders, not sure where this idea came from. The closest he got to it was from penalties where he was encouraged to go for distance but that seems to have died off too (maybe because he missed touch a fair bit?)
It seemed the Saders used the short up and unders to exit a fair bit too, so those expecting a big change in that department under Razor may be disappointed.
im just a dumb forward....but is a short up and under and "exit"....best case you get the ball back but still not far from your line...worst case you give it too them in broken play in your own half
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i may have made this up, doesnt Jordie have a big boot?I’m guessing the theory of it was to limit how often we go to set piece ( line outs their throw ) which is the boks bread and butter , and go up to try and create more chaos scenarios which might suit us more than them.
But it’s risky stuff , it’s not like they don’t have some dangerous athletes in broken play anyway .
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
i may have made this up, doesnt Jordie have a big boot?
He used to have. Probably still in the top part of NZ kickers but that isn't saying too much. I wonder if there is a dearth of good kicking coaches in NZ.
Jordie took some penalty touch finders later in the game and one from memory was a monster. Not sure who decided if RM/BB/JB does it. But there is a reason other teams have an exit playbook that then utilises the biggest boot in their backline, Lowe does it a lot for Ireland, WLR for SA etc etc.
I remember hearing someone say the biggest battle is for halfway, if you can win the halfway contest and play more in the opposition half that will create pressure. This is pretty much the exact SA playbook, field position and then suffocate D and force the opposition to make mistakes. Test match rugby really.
There has to be some intelligent person good at physics that has worked out the best position in the 22 to create the best angle to get the most metres into touch. Your exits should prioritise getting your nominated exit kicker into that spot so they can get the most metres every time.
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
When we play direct and with pace we can beat anyone. I just hope they were trying different things and refused to show their hand. Keeping the powder dry so to speak....
That's the straw I'm grasping now. Fozzies' 4 year epic long con is about to bear fruit ...
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@kev said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
Probably because the Blues spend so much time defending because of
Average number of tackles attempted per game shows the Blues actually defended less per match
I think the kicking stats are exactly what they appear to be. McKenzie kicked further than anyone else & Mou'nga gets credit for things he doesn't do
Agree, RM does not tend to kick long for the Saders, not sure where this idea came from. The closest he got to it was from penalties where he was encouraged to go for distance but that seems to have died off too (maybe because he missed touch a fair bit?)
It seemed the Saders used the short up and unders to exit a fair bit too, so those expecting a big change in that department under Razor may be disappointed.
im just a dumb forward....but is a short up and under and "exit"....best case you get the ball back but still not far from your line...worst case you give it too them in broken play in your own half
,
i may have made this up, doesnt Jordie have a big boot?I’m guessing the theory of it was to limit how often we go to set piece ( line outs their throw ) which is the boks bread and butter , and go up to try and create more chaos scenarios which might suit us more than them.
But it’s risky stuff , it’s not like they don’t have some dangerous athletes in broken play anyway .
yeah, we're still trying to play like we're the only ones that can counter attack and thats just not true anymore
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@kev said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
Probably because the Blues spend so much time defending because of
Average number of tackles attempted per game shows the Blues actually defended less per match
I think the kicking stats are exactly what they appear to be. McKenzie kicked further than anyone else & Mou'nga gets credit for things he doesn't do
Agree, RM does not tend to kick long for the Saders, not sure where this idea came from. The closest he got to it was from penalties where he was encouraged to go for distance but that seems to have died off too (maybe because he missed touch a fair bit?)
It seemed the Saders used the short up and unders to exit a fair bit too, so those expecting a big change in that department under Razor may be disappointed.
im just a dumb forward....but is a short up and under and "exit"....best case you get the ball back but still not far from your line...worst case you give it too them in broken play in your own half
,
i may have made this up, doesnt Jordie have a big boot?I’m guessing the theory of it was to limit how often we go to set piece ( line outs their throw ) which is the boks bread and butter , and go up to try and create more chaos scenarios which might suit us more than them.
But it’s risky stuff , it’s not like they don’t have some dangerous athletes in broken play anyway .
As soon as the boks have the ball it's up to them what they do with it, and that isn't chaos. They grind, we're hard on defence and under pressure & refs (no criticism) pretty much always favour the attacking team, so we give away penalties and are faced with multiple lineouts 5m out - which is their bread & butter.
cue more penalties, cue team yellow card, then we're points down & chasing the game, making more handling errors etc. it's all so stupid, and it is nothing new - territory has been a basic rugby principle forever, but we seem to think we're above it now for some reason - except the results say we're obviously fucking well not. -
Yes the tighter higher penalizing NH way would I imagine favour the Bok strategy. Whatever that last game's status they will be hard to beat.
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Stats show that the ABs v SA game was played with 33 minutes in motion on the pitch.A total of 107 minutes from kick off to the final whistle. 74 minutes was on account of stoppages via the TMO calls, injuries, send-offs etc.
It really shows how much the pace of the Game suited the Boks,And probably what we are going to get in the big WC games. -
@Duluth said in [All Blacks vs Springboks
Average number of tackles attempted per game shows the Blues actually defended less per match
You could read that another way….
Be interested to see how much footy each team plays in their own 22 / 30 metre mark, the number of chip kicks, cross kicks etc. Agree the Chiefs had a great long kicking game this year.
I don’t have a problem with any of our kickers kicking length, just whether they choose or are instructed too. But no doubt JB kicks longer than others.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
I wonder if there is a dearth of good kicking coaches in NZ.
The kicking coach for the ABs will be the same person who does that role at the Chiefs - David Hill.
That suggests it's more about the players for the ABs and their lack of execution/ability. The best clearing kick from an AB in this match was from a guy playing his second test, not the three experienced starters.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@kev said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
Probably because the Blues spend so much time defending because of
Average number of tackles attempted per game shows the Blues actually defended less per match
I think the kicking stats are exactly what they appear to be. McKenzie kicked further than anyone else & Mou'nga gets credit for things he doesn't do
I think the Chiefs have the best game suited to test rugby of the Super sides - the Saders are based on an accuracy and discipline (or indiscipline?) that our top team can't replicate at the level above.
If we must have game breaker rocks/diamonds players across our team, how about we at least try to play in the right end of the field to keep the ball in front of our forwards and let our weapons try their luck without so much on the line?
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
Agree, RM does not tend to kick long for the Saders, not sure where this idea came from.
It makes no sense to me. It's a stubborn myth though.
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Crusaders play a much more conservative game come finals time. There is a lot of NH aerial ping pong ( esp. against the Chiefs as no team wanted to play anywhere near their 22). SS is a clever kicker by the way. Even in the Aussie test, he mixed it up when he found his mojo in the 2nd half.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Windows97 the only other loosie with strong ball carrying ability is Akira. I'm so disappointed that we have not managed to harness his talent (for whatever reason). As much as I like Jacobson, he's not a test 6. He didn't play badly per se, but is not able to match the physicality of the big teams so we're always going to be under the pump.
Ironically Finau showed some promise in the 1 opportunity he had but of course he stayed at home so we could take an extra winger to "practice with".
Of course the fact that you need go-forward ball first before it's of any use to pass the ball to your wingers otherwise they simply stand as useless lumps on the sides of the field watching the horror unfold in front of them unable to do anything to stop seems to have escaped Foster and Co, as we saw on the weekend.
Still they'll be egg on my face when the AB's unleash attacking moves the likes of which we've never seen before throughout the knock out stages of this RWC thanks to all that additional practice they've been able to have.
Ioane - to Telea!!! Backpass to Barret, triple scissors with Clarke!! They're in again!! Unbelievable - I've never seen play like this from the All Blacks!! That's the final sewn up in an attacking display of rugby that will leave the world speechless for many years to come!!
Oh yes - I'll look back on this post and chuckle to myself - you got one over me Foster, you cunning genius of a man!! Silly me to ever doubt you.
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Windows97 the only other loosie with strong ball carrying ability is Akira. I'm so disappointed that we have not managed to harness his talent (for whatever reason). As much as I like Jacobson, he's not a test 6. He didn't play badly per se, but is not able to match the physicality of the big teams so we're always going to be under the pump.
Ironically Finau showed some promise in the 1 opportunity he had but of course he stayed at home so we could take an extra winger to "practice with".
Of course the fact that you need go-forward ball first before it's of any use to pass the ball to your wingers otherwise they simply stand as useless lumps on the sides of the field watching the horror unfold in front of them unable to do anything to stop it as we saw on the weekend.
Still they'll be egg on my face when the AB's unleash attacking moves the likes of which we've never seen before throughout the knock out stages of this RWC thanks to all that additional practice they've been able to have.
Ioane - to Telea!!! Backpass to Barret, triple scissors with Clarke!! They're in again!! Unbelievable - I've never seen play like this from the All Blacks!! That's the final sewn up in an attacking display of rugby that will leave the world speechless for many years to come!!
Oh yes - I'll look back on this post and chuckle to myself - you got one over me Foster, you cunning genius of a man!! Silly me to ever doubt you.
Maybe this is in fact the greatest act of deception since Patton's fake army on D-Day! We'll suddenly see tactical nous, proper kicks, direct forward play and backline moves that aren't telegraphed worse than a punch from a sloth.
A man can dream I guess....
But I still think it's a repeat of 2019. We fark someone up then get strangled to death in the semis.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Windows97 the only other loosie with strong ball carrying ability is Akira. I'm so disappointed that we have not managed to harness his talent (for whatever reason). As much as I like Jacobson, he's not a test 6. He didn't play badly per se, but is not able to match the physicality of the big teams so we're always going to be under the pump.
Ironically Finau showed some promise in the 1 opportunity he had but of course he stayed at home so we could take an extra winger to "practice with".
Of course the fact that you need go-forward ball first before it's of any use to pass the ball to your wingers otherwise they simply stand as useless lumps on the sides of the field watching the horror unfold in front of them unable to do anything to stop it as we saw on the weekend.
Still they'll be egg on my face when the AB's unleash attacking moves the likes of which we've never seen before throughout the knock out stages of this RWC thanks to all that additional practice they've been able to have.
Ioane - to Telea!!! Backpass to Barret, triple scissors with Clarke!! They're in again!! Unbelievable - I've never seen play like this from the All Blacks!! That's the final sewn up in an attacking display of rugby that will leave the world speechless for many years to come!!
Oh yes - I'll look back on this post and chuckle to myself - you got one over me Foster, you cunning genius of a man!! Silly me to ever doubt you.
Maybe this is in fact the greatest act of deception since Patton's fake army on D-Day! We'll suddenly see tactical nous, proper kicks, direct forward play and backline moves that aren't telegraphed worse than a punch from a sloth.
A man can dream I guess....
But I still think it's a repeat of 2019. We fark someone up then get strangled to death in the semis.
Except this time the quarters are the hard game, if we win that I'm very confident we will win the semi. However we will be out in the quarters
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@Machpants said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
@Windows97 the only other loosie with strong ball carrying ability is Akira. I'm so disappointed that we have not managed to harness his talent (for whatever reason). As much as I like Jacobson, he's not a test 6. He didn't play badly per se, but is not able to match the physicality of the big teams so we're always going to be under the pump.
Ironically Finau showed some promise in the 1 opportunity he had but of course he stayed at home so we could take an extra winger to "practice with".
Of course the fact that you need go-forward ball first before it's of any use to pass the ball to your wingers otherwise they simply stand as useless lumps on the sides of the field watching the horror unfold in front of them unable to do anything to stop it as we saw on the weekend.
Still they'll be egg on my face when the AB's unleash attacking moves the likes of which we've never seen before throughout the knock out stages of this RWC thanks to all that additional practice they've been able to have.
Ioane - to Telea!!! Backpass to Barret, triple scissors with Clarke!! They're in again!! Unbelievable - I've never seen play like this from the All Blacks!! That's the final sewn up in an attacking display of rugby that will leave the world speechless for many years to come!!
Oh yes - I'll look back on this post and chuckle to myself - you got one over me Foster, you cunning genius of a man!! Silly me to ever doubt you.
Maybe this is in fact the greatest act of deception since Patton's fake army on D-Day! We'll suddenly see tactical nous, proper kicks, direct forward play and backline moves that aren't telegraphed worse than a punch from a sloth.
A man can dream I guess....
But I still think it's a repeat of 2019. We fark someone up then get strangled to death in the semis.
Except this time the quarters are the hard game, if we win that I'm very confident we will win the semi. However we will be out in the quarters
I can't presume anything with this team
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So I completely missed this game and have very little appetite to seek out any highlights etc.
However, if what I've read here, there and everywhere is true, should we be concerned about the Italy game?
Italy are a big strong team, and if they can push us around up front .... is there a real chance we don't get out of the pool?
Serious question post, not taking the piss.
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@MajorRage said in All Blacks vs Springboks - Twickenham:
So I completely missed this game and have very little appetite to seek out any highlights etc.
However, if what I've read here, there and everywhere is true, should we be concerned about the Italy game?
Italy are a big strong team, and if they can push us around up front .... is there a real chance we don't get out of the pool?
Serious question post, not taking the piss.
nah
this was a perfect storm of absolutely everything going wrong all at once. And you know what? We kick that penalty with our first chance, and Scott Barrett isn't a complete idiot, and who knows how the rest of the game goes. But we missed. Scotty dived. And we were fucked.
Nothing went right, it really was incredible. I would be astounded if that many guys played that badly at the same time, and we made that many errors, again.
