All Blacks vs Scotland
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I think it's fair to say that the selections made were because neither SP nor anyone else other than JB was trusted at fullback. It wasn't to manage JB, it wasn't to build alternative combinations, it wasn't to blood an alternative. It can definitely be argued whether that was wise, overtly risk-averse, unfair to SP etc etc, but let's not pretend it was some cunning ploy to build combos.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
So you're of the belief that the top team, hardly played together with any consistency over the last year, especially with midfield issues, should continuously rotated like 2007 and 2019
Is that a question?
I assume so as I haven't said that.The answer is no I don't.
I also don't hold to a belief that every minute of every game should be given to JB, which is what you are advocating.
There is a middle ground.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
You want more time developing a backup than a starter? Fucking mindless.
It's not binary. Try actually reading what I wrote rather than throwing your toys out of the pam because I don't agree with you.
Its exactly what you said, pam.
You have to be seriously lacking in basic comprehension skills if you think my view that we need to develop Jordie and provide a reasonable backup option if Jordie gets injured, equates to me arguing for developing the backup option over Jordie as a starting 12.
Your literal argument is we need to develop backups for JB. How do we sufficiently do that without sacrificing JBs time at 12 in the next 10 tests? Again, we don't have 20-30 tests. We have 10. Perhaps you can't comprehend your own argument.
I think he is explaining a view that would be held by 99% of international coaches.
Who would be crazy enough not to have a plan to mitigate an injury risk and go into a RWC with a starter that hasn't played in the position at that level for a year?
You say JB needs all the time available yet the 'other guy' doesn't need any.
You're welcome to your opinion but I doubt many would agree with that prospect.Technically the backup can still get plenty of time from the bench. TJP is the most capped bench starter we have ever had, not many people were screaming for him to start more just in case AS got injured. DH is exactly the same, we know what he offers, start him vs Japan or the Pacific Island nations, not tier 1 nations where JB needs the experience at present.
The fact is we had four opportunities for JB and RI to start together and it looks like they will only do this twice, that to me is a missed opportunity.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
For me...and im not a back so please ignore....a winger doing things like beating his man on the outside and scoring when given a sniff....is the old school equivalent of a hooker throwing straight...or a loosie making the tackle and pinching the ball
So you will never understand the great intricacies, skill, nous, vision of what it really means to play rugby. Plus we get the good looking women 😎
Talea attacked well, combined some good tough close in runs with a couple of longer ones. He will have some things to look at when it comes to defensive positioning and staying with the tackle.
I’m not sure if he’ll be picked this weekend because the AB coaches appear to see the England test differently to the Scotland one, but certainly something to build on.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
So you will never understand the great intricacies, skill, nous, vision of what it really means to play rugby
indeed, he was far too busy actually doing to ponder truly understanding. where as you blokes in the backs had front row seats to see what the real players were doing.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I personally think he is a better 12 anyway (who can cover 13) as his offload and short passing game in closer is more effective.
I still don't expect ALB to be playing 12 for the Chiefs with both Nankivell and Poihipi more suited to that role. ALB is their defensive organiser from centre.
For the ABs, ALB is the only midfielder who is comfortable playing in either position, which does make him the ideal sub. No.23 needs to be an impact winger, not Havili.
I reckon that Nankivell plays better or well enough at 13. He has more pace than it looks and I think he does reasonably well defending the outside break. 12 ALB, 13 Nankivell with Poihipi on the bench and I reckon both teams would be well served. Could help Nankivell's AB chances too.
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This post is deleted!
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I got a genuine question for those that are whinging that we only 'only' beat Scotland by 8 points (and as I said earlier I was happy with an 8 point win).
Do you all remember probably the best AB team we have had since the game went pro? Probably the 2011-2016. Geez those useless pricks could only beat Scotland by 8 points , the year before '15 WC (24-16), I recall some angst then too.
I think we need to celebrate wins fellas. -
Hmmm a lot of negativity on here, having finally gotten round to watching the game, I see more positives than negatives.
I think personally we're heading in the right direction, sure, there were some below par performances, but at least we now have a clear idea on what our top side is now (unlike 2019), and for those saying we need to build depth, we have plenty of it imo.
Thought the forwards went well, with the clear standouts being Ardie, Papali'i and Scott Barrett. Whitelock put in his usual sold shift as did Taukeiaho and I know people keep moaning about a lack of 6, I think Akira and Frizzell are doing a good job. People need to get over the fact that we don't have anyone as dominant as Kaino anymore and need to make do with what we have. I prefer Frizzell starting with Akira off the bench but am happy with whatever the coaches decide on that one.
The backs were a bit rusty out there but at the same time, we know what our starting backline is going forward so on the positive side, at least the got a run together, so if they are needed, they can jump in next year if need be. We'll done to Telea on his two tries on debut and maybe it was reading this thread thinking that Clarke had an absolute disaster, and yes, I'm not saying he was great or anything, but I was expecting a lot worse.
The bench was brilliant it must be said, punishing a tiring Scottish team. Perenara, Taylor and Frizzell were especially good. Well done to Taylor who has copped plenty of criticism this year, and also Perenara, who has thrown his name in the hat for a recall next year.
I'm not saying we're the finished article, but I think as a team, we're slowly starting to understand Schmidt's gameplan a bit better and as I said earlier, at least we know what our starting side will look like. I'm still doubtful about McLeod's defensive system as just like the Japanese did, the Scots also managed to get around us with relative ease. I would have had him gone with Mooar and Plumtree personally as despite him being there for so long, we still manage to get beaten out wide as has happened all year. Our loosies have improved as a unit as the year has gone on, but we still look a bit lost in the backs, especially off line out ball where teams use the extra space to create mismatches. I put that down to McLeod personally, and its one of our big worries heading into world cup year imo.
Still, we got the win with a half strength side out there and showed a bit of character out there after getting outplayed for large periods of the game.
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@Dan54 Yeah I think people still haven't gotten out of those glory years where we could have rolled out 3 teams and still been number 1 in the world.
Those years are long gone, but we're still better than given credit for. Doesn't help when you have the anti Foster brigade constantly hoping we lose so the almighty savior Razor can take over.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
You want more time developing a backup than a starter? Fucking mindless.
It's not binary. Try actually reading what I wrote rather than throwing your toys out of the pam because I don't agree with you.
Its exactly what you said, pam.
You have to be seriously lacking in basic comprehension skills if you think my view that we need to develop Jordie and provide a reasonable backup option if Jordie gets injured, equates to me arguing for developing the backup option over Jordie as a starting 12.
Your literal argument is we need to develop backups for JB. How do we sufficiently do that without sacrificing JBs time at 12 in the next 10 tests? Again, we don't have 20-30 tests. We have 10. Perhaps you can't comprehend your own argument.
Well at least you've stopped putting words in my mouth.....
But yeah, time's short so let's give JB all the game time we can and make him play 80 minutes each game as there's zero risk he might get injured and he'll always be 100% fit and raring to go every Test until the end of RWC2023.
Sounds like a well thought out plan.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Again, that argument only makes sense if you're selecting a rookie or inexperienced player to develop.
Or combinations.
Like JB and ALB?
I'm going to look at the game again today and see how ALB actually went. He looked really out of sorts in the first half but did he improve a lot as the game went on?
If he knocks the rust off, a trio of RI/ALB/JB could work pretty well barring injuries, though I'd imagine the selectors will be looking at Nankivell & Levi Aumua closely.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Again, that argument only makes sense if you're selecting a rookie or inexperienced player to develop.
Or combinations.
Like JB and ALB?
I'm going to look at the game again today and see how ALB actually went. He looked really out of sorts in the first half but did he improve a lot as the game went on?
If he knocks the rust off, a trio of RI/ALB/JB could work pretty well barring injuries, though I'd imagine the selectors will be looking at Nankivell & Levi Aumua closely.
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Again, that argument only makes sense if you're selecting a rookie or inexperienced player to develop.
Or combinations.
Like JB and ALB?
I'm going to look at the game again today and see how ALB actually went. He looked really out of sorts in the first half but did he improve a lot as the game went on?
If he knocks the rust off, a trio of RI/ALB/JB could work pretty well barring injuries, though I'd imagine the selectors will be looking at Nankivell & Levi Aumua closely.
He got better as the subs rolled in. Last 25 minutes were much better
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew good hands...made meters with ball in hand....scored when given the opportunity...thats got to the the bedrock of a good winger...build the rest on top
Is that just because he is new? Did we say the same about Clarke and now want to complain about his defence?
I'm serious here. Making one from four on the tackle count isn't great.CC frustrates me. He seems hungry for work, brave on defence, has pace and power to burn.....but seems to hesitate and just the wrong moment and make the wrong decision. Is it a head thing or is it that he's being coached to look for support rather than pin his ears back after he's made a break?
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crazy-Horse and i didn't even think he was anything but pretty good. this wasn't Goldie on debut territory. this was two nicely taken gimme tries, a good palm off, and some missed tackles.
Solid, not overawed, but not some new superstar unearthed (i miss the days of a shiny new outside back coming in and immediately looking fucking amazing. Jordan i guess did a fair impression)
I'm seriously happy with solid after the year so far. I think we're more than OK with our wing options particularly when WJ gets back. Good mix of types and few work-ons needed but certainly not a weak area of our game.
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For me the biggest up from that win was that once we'd dug ourselves into a hole, we found a way out of it We didn't go for miracle plays, make mistakes and be ill-disciplined when we wrested momentum back and stayed relatively calm.
Big. big difference from when we've been in similar situations.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I thought akira was very quiet but saw some say he was doing good work so will accept i just missed it
Think he faded in and out and looked a bit lost at times. Fell back into some bad habits - I recall him a couple of times with "scrag" type tackle attempts that failed. Just seemed to be struggling to find his place in the game. Wasn't a bad game as such, just a bit....Frizellish
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I thought akira was very quiet but saw some say he was doing good work so will accept i just missed it
Think he faded in and out and looked a bit lost at times. Fell back into some bad habits - I recall him a couple of times with "scrag" type tackle attempts that failed. Just seemed to be struggling to find his place in the game. Wasn't a bad game as such, just a bit....Frizellish
Frizellish? Excellent, so Akira to start then!
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Started a new job so haven't had a chance to read through the thread yet (and I went to see Black Panther today) which should be entertaining. I'm only on two days a week at the moment so will have time for a deep dove tomorrow.
Anyway, my initial thoughts:
- So we played about as well as we have in the last couple of versions of this game. I expect the thread will acknowledge that and it wont just be vitriol at Foster.
- They started so well I thought we were going to rack up a big score. Then it all went to shit.
- Was that TJs best game of rugby in years? Or was Christie just bad in comparison that any competence looks good?
- ALB was terrible at centre, then really good at 12. Is Havilli done?
- Taylor is finally playing himself into form. I guess Ryan's plan of giving him umpteenth chances is paying off. Still Sammy is still an easy step above him.
- Aidie and Paps were great. I thought Akira was average at his style, but why are they using him so poorly? Is it him trying to prove that he can play the hitting rucks game? Or is it the coaches instructions? He should be running with the ball yet he barely got a pass even when he was standing in a pod.
- Telea had a good debut. Glad we selected him so South Africa and Samoa can't. (That's a joke.)
- SB had a good game. Whitelock put in his usual shift, but if he wasn't Whitelock would his discipline be called into question more, for an experienced player, the captain, and someone whose looked in his late 40s since he was 20 he sure does give away some silly penalties.
I'll take the win.
