All Blacks vs Scotland
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.We don't have time ffs. 10 tests. TEN is what we have between now and a QF exit. We had time in 2020 and 2021. Now we don't.
You seem to be getting a bit stressed about this. Considering none of us are party to training data, playing data,knowledge of niggling injuries, knowledge of personal leave etc etc maybe just see how it pans out?
I'd think that next year a key 23 will be used as much as possible but there will be the occasional need to deliberately give someone in the squad time if it doesn't come 'naturally'Na I'm super psyched about a coach who doesn't appear to give 2 fucks about time left and continuity.
And for some reason think that demanding he follows your thinking from an internet forum despite not having even half the information he does will somehow set the rugby world to rights?
What?
Just pointing out that you are going on and on about the same thing as if you think someone is listening.
By the way, you know that JB/RI midfield that was so brilliant against Oz? They had only played about 15 minutes as a combo before that game. Yep. Not 62 games.
My fucking point. They need as much game time as possible between now and the QF FFS.
Are you reading whole posts or just skipping to the part you want?
Were JB and RI good in their first game together? Yep. Go back to the thread and you'll find all sorts of superlatives, not about their eventual promise but how good it was right then.
Point is that it didn't take 62 games, or even a dozen, to get there.
Yes, time together will build instincts but it also works pretty well as is.So chop and change the team until the QF and just home 2007 and 2019 don't happen again. Cool.
No one has said that and you should know it if you didn't keep twisting the discussion into binary outcomes
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@Machpants said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
he plays with the second team whilst at 10
i mean, i know we want to forget the Ireland series and the first SA test but that's just basically not true
BB at 10 just makes the team look like the second team
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
You want more time developing a backup than a starter? Fucking mindless.
It's not binary. Try actually reading what I wrote rather than throwing your toys out of the pam because I don't agree with you.
Its exactly what you said, pam.
You have to be seriously lacking in basic comprehension skills if you think my view that we need to develop Jordie and provide a reasonable backup option if Jordie gets injured, equates to me arguing for developing the backup option over Jordie as a starting 12.
Your literal argument is we need to develop backups for JB. How do we sufficiently do that without sacrificing JBs time at 12 in the next 10 tests? Again, we don't have 20-30 tests. We have 10. Perhaps you can't comprehend your own argument.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.We don't have time ffs. 10 tests. TEN is what we have between now and a QF exit. We had time in 2020 and 2021. Now we don't.
You seem to be getting a bit stressed about this. Considering none of us are party to training data, playing data,knowledge of niggling injuries, knowledge of personal leave etc etc maybe just see how it pans out?
I'd think that next year a key 23 will be used as much as possible but there will be the occasional need to deliberately give someone in the squad time if it doesn't come 'naturally'Na I'm super psyched about a coach who doesn't appear to give 2 fucks about time left and continuity.
And for some reason think that demanding he follows your thinking from an internet forum despite not having even half the information he does will somehow set the rugby world to rights?
What?
Just pointing out that you are going on and on about the same thing as if you think someone is listening.
By the way, you know that JB/RI midfield that was so brilliant against Oz? They had only played about 15 minutes as a combo before that game. Yep. Not 62 games.
My fucking point. They need as much game time as possible between now and the QF FFS.
Are you reading whole posts or just skipping to the part you want?
Were JB and RI good in their first game together? Yep. Go back to the thread and you'll find all sorts of superlatives, not about their eventual promise but how good it was right then.
Point is that it didn't take 62 games, or even a dozen, to get there.
Yes, time together will build instincts but it also works pretty well as is.So chop and change the team until the QF and just home 2007 and 2019 don't happen again. Cool.
No one has said that and you should know it if you didn't keep twisting the discussion into binary outcomes
"Develop back up options for JB et al..."
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew good hands...made meters with ball in hand....scored when given the opportunity...thats got to the the bedrock of a good winger...build the rest on top
Is that just because he is new? Did we say the same about Clarke and now want to complain about his defence?
I'm serious here. Making one from four on the tackle count isn't great.you're not wrong but i i think its enough to give Tela a chance to develop, as CC has been given a chance
For me...and im not a back so please ignore....a winger doing things like beating his man on the outside and scoring when given a sniff....is the old school equivalent of a hooker throwing straight...or a loosie making the tackle and pinching the ball
yes...we want everyone to do everything and the best of the best can...but if you cant have that then i'll settle for the old ways
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
You want more time developing a backup than a starter? Fucking mindless.
It's not binary. Try actually reading what I wrote rather than throwing your toys out of the pam because I don't agree with you.
Its exactly what you said, pam.
You have to be seriously lacking in basic comprehension skills if you think my view that we need to develop Jordie and provide a reasonable backup option if Jordie gets injured, equates to me arguing for developing the backup option over Jordie as a starting 12.
Your literal argument is we need to develop backups for JB. How do we sufficiently do that without sacrificing JBs time at 12 in the next 10 tests? Again, we don't have 20-30 tests. We have 10. Perhaps you can't comprehend your own argument.
I think he is explaining a view that would be held by 99% of international coaches.
Who would be crazy enough not to have a plan to mitigate an injury risk and go into a RWC with a starter that hasn't played in the position at that level for a year?
You say JB needs all the time available yet the 'other guy' doesn't need any.
You're welcome to your opinion but I doubt many would agree with that prospect. -
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew good hands...made meters with ball in hand....scored when given the opportunity...thats got to the the bedrock of a good winger...build the rest on top
Is that just because he is new? Did we say the same about Clarke and now want to complain about his defence?
I'm serious here. Making one from four on the tackle count isn't great.He is the Fern's shiny new toy.
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@Crazy-Horse and i didn't even think he was anything but pretty good. this wasn't Goldie on debut territory. this was two nicely taken gimme tries, a good palm off, and some missed tackles.
Solid, not overawed, but not some new superstar unearthed (i miss the days of a shiny new outside back coming in and immediately looking fucking amazing. Jordan i guess did a fair impression)
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@mariner4life thats all that i was saying, solid .....and considering we've seen bridge fail to convert decent opportunities to score....i think he's worth leaving in the mix
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Taukei'aho has now scored 10 tries in 20 tests, the best strike rate for an All Black forward in history.
Oh yeah I forgot to mention him. Maybe I'm just used to the fact he's a total runaway train on attack. Fuck he's good
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
You want more time developing a backup than a starter? Fucking mindless.
It's not binary. Try actually reading what I wrote rather than throwing your toys out of the pam because I don't agree with you.
Its exactly what you said, pam.
You have to be seriously lacking in basic comprehension skills if you think my view that we need to develop Jordie and provide a reasonable backup option if Jordie gets injured, equates to me arguing for developing the backup option over Jordie as a starting 12.
Your literal argument is we need to develop backups for JB. How do we sufficiently do that without sacrificing JBs time at 12 in the next 10 tests? Again, we don't have 20-30 tests. We have 10. Perhaps you can't comprehend your own argument.
I think he is explaining a view that would be held by 99% of international coaches.
Who would be crazy enough not to have a plan to mitigate an injury risk and go into a RWC with a starter that hasn't played in the position at that level for a year?
You say JB needs all the time available yet the 'other guy' doesn't need any.
You're welcome to your opinion but I doubt many would agree with that prospect.Yes and valid if it were 2 years, even 1 year ago.
So you're of the belief that the top team, hardly played together with any consistency over the last year, especially with midfield issues, should continuously rotated like 2007 and 2019, when proper cohesion has yet to be established all the way until the QF? If you're saying there aren't many out there who would agree with that, then your DHs manager. Media, former ABs are echoing that very thing.
Fuck, it was people like you who were saying to hold off on the JB at 12 circle jerk until he's actually played some tough sides and looked good. How the fuck does he get to do that when he's rotated out of the side every two weeks. FML.
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I think it's fair to say that the selections made were because neither SP nor anyone else other than JB was trusted at fullback. It wasn't to manage JB, it wasn't to build alternative combinations, it wasn't to blood an alternative. It can definitely be argued whether that was wise, overtly risk-averse, unfair to SP etc etc, but let's not pretend it was some cunning ploy to build combos.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
So you're of the belief that the top team, hardly played together with any consistency over the last year, especially with midfield issues, should continuously rotated like 2007 and 2019
Is that a question?
I assume so as I haven't said that.The answer is no I don't.
I also don't hold to a belief that every minute of every game should be given to JB, which is what you are advocating.
There is a middle ground.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
You want more time developing a backup than a starter? Fucking mindless.
It's not binary. Try actually reading what I wrote rather than throwing your toys out of the pam because I don't agree with you.
Its exactly what you said, pam.
You have to be seriously lacking in basic comprehension skills if you think my view that we need to develop Jordie and provide a reasonable backup option if Jordie gets injured, equates to me arguing for developing the backup option over Jordie as a starting 12.
Your literal argument is we need to develop backups for JB. How do we sufficiently do that without sacrificing JBs time at 12 in the next 10 tests? Again, we don't have 20-30 tests. We have 10. Perhaps you can't comprehend your own argument.
I think he is explaining a view that would be held by 99% of international coaches.
Who would be crazy enough not to have a plan to mitigate an injury risk and go into a RWC with a starter that hasn't played in the position at that level for a year?
You say JB needs all the time available yet the 'other guy' doesn't need any.
You're welcome to your opinion but I doubt many would agree with that prospect.Technically the backup can still get plenty of time from the bench. TJP is the most capped bench starter we have ever had, not many people were screaming for him to start more just in case AS got injured. DH is exactly the same, we know what he offers, start him vs Japan or the Pacific Island nations, not tier 1 nations where JB needs the experience at present.
The fact is we had four opportunities for JB and RI to start together and it looks like they will only do this twice, that to me is a missed opportunity.
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
For me...and im not a back so please ignore....a winger doing things like beating his man on the outside and scoring when given a sniff....is the old school equivalent of a hooker throwing straight...or a loosie making the tackle and pinching the ball
So you will never understand the great intricacies, skill, nous, vision of what it really means to play rugby. Plus we get the good looking women 😎
Talea attacked well, combined some good tough close in runs with a couple of longer ones. He will have some things to look at when it comes to defensive positioning and staying with the tackle.
I’m not sure if he’ll be picked this weekend because the AB coaches appear to see the England test differently to the Scotland one, but certainly something to build on.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
So you will never understand the great intricacies, skill, nous, vision of what it really means to play rugby
indeed, he was far too busy actually doing to ponder truly understanding. where as you blokes in the backs had front row seats to see what the real players were doing.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I personally think he is a better 12 anyway (who can cover 13) as his offload and short passing game in closer is more effective.
I still don't expect ALB to be playing 12 for the Chiefs with both Nankivell and Poihipi more suited to that role. ALB is their defensive organiser from centre.
For the ABs, ALB is the only midfielder who is comfortable playing in either position, which does make him the ideal sub. No.23 needs to be an impact winger, not Havili.
I reckon that Nankivell plays better or well enough at 13. He has more pace than it looks and I think he does reasonably well defending the outside break. 12 ALB, 13 Nankivell with Poihipi on the bench and I reckon both teams would be well served. Could help Nankivell's AB chances too.
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This post is deleted!
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I got a genuine question for those that are whinging that we only 'only' beat Scotland by 8 points (and as I said earlier I was happy with an 8 point win).
Do you all remember probably the best AB team we have had since the game went pro? Probably the 2011-2016. Geez those useless pricks could only beat Scotland by 8 points , the year before '15 WC (24-16), I recall some angst then too.
I think we need to celebrate wins fellas.
