All Blacks vs Scotland
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Taylor and Stanley had played ONE test together prior to the 87 WC
95 Lomu Kronfeld Mehts and Osborne had 5 tests between them
2011 On top of the injury issues at 10 the back 3 practically got introduced on the way to Eden Park for the first test.
they are 3 of our 4 most successful WC's 2015 is the outlier.
Sure it's nice to have a setlled experience team with viable back-up options across the fiels, but it hardly ever happens.
Another example for 2011 is halfback. If you look at 2010 it was clear that Jimmy Cowan was the first choice starting halfback starting 9 matches including Wales x3, Ireland, Boks x2, Oz x2. In 2010 Weepu came off the bench in 6 matches and started 3. He hadn’t started a test match since 2008 EOYT before he got the start in 2010 Welly test vs the Boks.
Come 2011 prior to the RWC, Cowan starts tests vs Fiji Boks x2, but they give the two Bledisloe starts to Weepu.
RWC rolls on and Cowan starts the first match against Tonga. We have Weepu on the bench in the second match (vs Japan) as a reserve 1st 5 (Ellis started and Cowan was the reserve halfback). Match 3 is France our most important pool match and Henry goes to Weepu (with Ellis as reserve). Final pool match vs Canada and he starts Cowan with Ellis as the reserve. Weepu is selected as reserve 1st 5.
QF vs Argies - starts Weepu with Cowan as reserve. By this time Cruden has joined the squad and into the team.
SF vs Boks - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve. By this time Beaver has joined the squad and is named in the 22 but doesn’t play.
Final vs France - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve.
So a long winded way to say - given how it played out in the RWC with our halfback position, what happened the year prior had very little bearing IMO. The critical thing was that Weepu had experience and was called on in 2011 despite up and down form and fitness in 2010.
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@ACT-Crusader So what you are trying to say is DH starts in the WC 23 final and has a blinder?
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader So what you are trying to say is DH starts in the WC 23 final and has a blinder?
Has he been keeping his powder dry?
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Taylor and Stanley had played ONE test together prior to the 87 WC
95 Lomu Kronfeld Mehts and Osborne had 5 tests between them
2011 On top of the injury issues at 10 the back 3 practically got introduced on the way to Eden Park for the first test.
they are 3 of our 4 most successful WC's 2015 is the outlier.
Sure it's nice to have a setlled experience team with viable back-up options across the fiels, but it hardly ever happens.
Another example for 2011 is halfback. If you look at 2010 it was clear that Jimmy Cowan was the first choice starting halfback starting 9 matches including Wales x3, Ireland, Boks x2, Oz x2. In 2010 Weepu came off the bench in 6 matches and started 3. He hadn’t started a test match since 2008 EOYT before he got the start in 2010 Welly test vs the Boks.
Come 2011 prior to the RWC, Cowan starts tests vs Fiji Boks x2, but they give the two Bledisloe starts to Weepu.
RWC rolls on and Cowan starts the first match against Tonga. We have Weepu on the bench in the second match (vs Japan) as a reserve 1st 5 (Ellis started and Cowan was the reserve halfback). Match 3 is France our most important pool match and Henry goes to Weepu (with Ellis as reserve). Final pool match vs Canada and he starts Cowan with Ellis as the reserve. Weepu is selected as reserve 1st 5.
QF vs Argies - starts Weepu with Cowan as reserve. By this time Cruden has joined the squad and into the team.
SF vs Boks - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve. By this time Beaver has joined the squad and is named in the 22 but doesn’t play.
Final vs France - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve.
So a long winded way to say - given how it played out in the RWC with our halfback position, what happened the year prior had very little bearing IMO. The critical thing was that Weepu had experience and was called on in 2011 despite up and down form and fitness in 2010.
How do you remember this stuff???
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader So what you are trying to say is DH starts in the WC 23 final and has a blinder?
Or hobbles off injured in the final because both Jordie and ALB have been injured in training and the semi final, only to make way for Sevu Reece to be shifted to 2nd 5 and score a try and hold the cup aloft….
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The selectors will have a fixed number of players (33?) allowed in their RWC squad, and replacements on the other side of the world, not getting much high-level matchplay (NPC being shorn of Island and NZ squad members). So, I think it makes sense to plan your likely 33 in that squad now, and develop a number of contingency options within that group.
Last I saw we had a tough opening match, and a killer draw from quarters onwards. I would look to rest most of the top players against Uruguay and Namibia, but play the best team against France and Italy. That way we are best placed to manage our squad through three tough matches in consecutive weekends. And I would absolutely want comfort in what my plan B was if a key player needed a rest match during the knockouts- perhaps while carrying an injury, or maybe via illness. I think you also need to go into RWC with a good idea as to your best starting XV, and best finishing XV. There are 8 differences in that personnel.
Playing our best 23 week-in, week-out now makes no sense in my view, if the big goal is world cup success. But, trying out your full squad as starting and finishing combinations does make sense. It is just a shame that we seem to be let down by the starting combo too often, so that the planned finishers get less time than was intended.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
Here’s a couple of stats that may come as a surprise:
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Nonu started at 2nd 5 with nine different centres.
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Conrad started at centre with ten different 2nd 5s.
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Between 2005 and 2015 there were 45 tests that neither of them featured in the starting midfield.
Heres another stat. The played in 62 tests together. Do we have 62 tests between now and the QF?
You do understand that 62 tests came at the end of their partnership and not the beginning?
Sold. Change the team at will. No need for team to click. 5 tests between now and the QF will get us to the final.
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Without a proper read of all the thread:
TJPs best test, I loved him asking the ref about them not rolling at a ruck, and then at the next ruck we get the penalty for them not rolling. He wasn't moaning, just playing the ref more professionally; with form and without flapping around, he can be quite a player off the bench.
I don't know that Beauden Barrett should be in the ABs ahead of Dmac. He's simply not a 10 and is likely a worse 15 than Dmac. I hope he can get some form next year.
Clarke should never have gone to 7s. He's regressed and isn't the right player for the 11 jersey until he can stay on his fucking feet and make some tackles.
I don't have the words to describe Havili except to say that he is a very useful Super rugby player. ALB probably doesn't have the speed to play 13 anymore, so the Chiefs could do a solid and play him at 12. His penalty on Hogg was criminally stupid.
I have to apologize to Codie Taylor, well done that man for turning it around.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Taylor and Stanley had played ONE test together prior to the 87 WC
95 Lomu Kronfeld Mehts and Osborne had 5 tests between them
2011 On top of the injury issues at 10 the back 3 practically got introduced on the way to Eden Park for the first test.
they are 3 of our 4 most successful WC's 2015 is the outlier.
Sure it's nice to have a setlled experience team with viable back-up options across the fiels, but it hardly ever happens.
Another example for 2011 is halfback. If you look at 2010 it was clear that Jimmy Cowan was the first choice starting halfback starting 9 matches including Wales x3, Ireland, Boks x2, Oz x2. In 2010 Weepu came off the bench in 6 matches and started 3. He hadn’t started a test match since 2008 EOYT before he got the start in 2010 Welly test vs the Boks.
Come 2011 prior to the RWC, Cowan starts tests vs Fiji Boks x2, but they give the two Bledisloe starts to Weepu.
RWC rolls on and Cowan starts the first match against Tonga. We have Weepu on the bench in the second match (vs Japan) as a reserve 1st 5 (Ellis started and Cowan was the reserve halfback). Match 3 is France our most important pool match and Henry goes to Weepu (with Ellis as reserve). Final pool match vs Canada and he starts Cowan with Ellis as the reserve. Weepu is selected as reserve 1st 5.
QF vs Argies - starts Weepu with Cowan as reserve. By this time Cruden has joined the squad and into the team.
SF vs Boks - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve. By this time Beaver has joined the squad and is named in the 22 but doesn’t play.
Final vs France - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve.
So a long winded way to say - given how it played out in the RWC with our halfback position, what happened the year prior had very little bearing IMO. The critical thing was that Weepu had experience and was called on in 2011 despite up and down form and fitness in 2010.
Thought Andy Ellis was fantastic closing out that final too, Beaver got all the plaudits , but Ellis calmness in difficult circumstances probably doesnt get the credit it deserves , you just never know who you may need to rely on .
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.We don't have time ffs. 10 tests. TEN is what we have between now and a QF exit. We had time in 2020 and 2021. Now we don't.
You seem to be getting a bit stressed about this. Considering none of us are party to training data, playing data,knowledge of niggling injuries, knowledge of personal leave etc etc maybe just see how it pans out?
I'd think that next year a key 23 will be used as much as possible but there will be the occasional need to deliberately give someone in the squad time if it doesn't come 'naturally'Na I'm super psyched about a coach who doesn't appear to give 2 fucks about time left and continuity.
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Not too sure what the point of all these posts about players coming into RWCs with limited experience and doing OK is in relation to Jordie?
Jordie is a player who has been shifted around too much, and as a result completely lost his way. Only when he's had some consistent time at 15 has he found his feet at the top level.
We're now trying to develop him as our first choice 12, so what do the coaches do? Shift him back to 15 to make way for a known quantity at 12. What for? Why was he moved again? Now he has to train at 12 again for the English match? Do they not learn a fucking thing?
Resting a player to manage workloads makes complete sense, and it was good to see Ioane on the bench. Shifting one of our best players around different positions in the backline is completely fucking retarded. Even more so when you do it to give one of the most limited players in the squad a run.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Not too sure what the point of all these posts about players coming into RWCs with limited experience and doing OK is in relation to Jordie?
Jordie is a player who has been shifted around too much, and as a result completely lost his way. Only when he's had some consistent time at 15 has he found his feet at the top level.
We're now trying to develop him as our first choice 12, so what do the coaches do? Shift him back to 15 to make way for a known quantity at 12. What for? Why was he moved again? Now he has to train at 12 again for the English match? Do they not learn a fucking thing?
Resting a player to manage workloads makes complete sense, and it was good to see Ioane on the bench. Shifting one of our best players around different positions in the backline is completely fucking retarded. Even more so when you do it to give one of the most limited players in the squad a run.
DH is the new Lomu. With his pace and size, watch out Irish or South African fullback.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
"Rugby: All Blacks coach Ian Foster impressed with ‘signs of growth’ in comeback win over Scotland"
No problems here. Nothing to see.
Outstanding work narrowly avoiding losing to Scotland who lost to 9th ranked Wallabies (who went on to lose to 12th ranked Italy) just 2 weeks ago.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Not too sure what the point of all these posts about players coming into RWCs with limited experience and doing OK is in relation to Jordie?
Jordie is a player who has been shifted around too much, and as a result completely lost his way. Only when he's had some consistent time at 15 has he found his feet at the top level.
We're now trying to develop him as our first choice 12, so what do the coaches do? Shift him back to 15 to make way for a known quantity at 12. What for? Why was he moved again? Now he has to train at 12 again for the English match? Do they not learn a fucking thing?
Resting a player to manage workloads makes complete sense, and it was good to see Ioane on the bench. Shifting one of our best players around different positions in the backline is completely fucking retarded. Even more so when you do it to give one of the most limited players in the squad a run.
That's a bit harsh on Beauden!
First job was to win against the Scots.
Selections were basically made to rest Richie the Mo before England.
If Beaudy and Jordie are are five-eighth combo, we either pick Stevey P. who had a bit of a shocker against Japan and otherwise has one minute of test experience. Or shift Davey H. back to a position he hasn't played in 18 months (several years at test level) and assume that all will be sweet.
Into a back three with a debutant who didn't make the initial squad and a guy who's been struggling on several fronts all season.
Or we pick the guy who has played 12 almost all season and the guy who has played 15 almost all season.
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Looks to me the 2023 WC maybe to far off for Beuden Barrett another 12 mths give or take a month is probably not going to help him.
Time for McZenzie to take his spot in the squad IMO.Telea for Clarke.
Sorry Akira fans but,Not the sort of 6 we need to win a WC.
TJP life in the old dog yet, maybe great coming of the bench in a tight Finals playoff game.
Jordie has to play 12 with Reiko at 13 If Selected correctly we may have a WC squad capable of doing something as long as we can negate the HC.
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@kiwiinmelb said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Taylor and Stanley had played ONE test together prior to the 87 WC
95 Lomu Kronfeld Mehts and Osborne had 5 tests between them
2011 On top of the injury issues at 10 the back 3 practically got introduced on the way to Eden Park for the first test.
they are 3 of our 4 most successful WC's 2015 is the outlier.
Sure it's nice to have a setlled experience team with viable back-up options across the fiels, but it hardly ever happens.
Another example for 2011 is halfback. If you look at 2010 it was clear that Jimmy Cowan was the first choice starting halfback starting 9 matches including Wales x3, Ireland, Boks x2, Oz x2. In 2010 Weepu came off the bench in 6 matches and started 3. He hadn’t started a test match since 2008 EOYT before he got the start in 2010 Welly test vs the Boks.
Come 2011 prior to the RWC, Cowan starts tests vs Fiji Boks x2, but they give the two Bledisloe starts to Weepu.
RWC rolls on and Cowan starts the first match against Tonga. We have Weepu on the bench in the second match (vs Japan) as a reserve 1st 5 (Ellis started and Cowan was the reserve halfback). Match 3 is France our most important pool match and Henry goes to Weepu (with Ellis as reserve). Final pool match vs Canada and he starts Cowan with Ellis as the reserve. Weepu is selected as reserve 1st 5.
QF vs Argies - starts Weepu with Cowan as reserve. By this time Cruden has joined the squad and into the team.
SF vs Boks - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve. By this time Beaver has joined the squad and is named in the 22 but doesn’t play.
Final vs France - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve.
So a long winded way to say - given how it played out in the RWC with our halfback position, what happened the year prior had very little bearing IMO. The critical thing was that Weepu had experience and was called on in 2011 despite up and down form and fitness in 2010.
Thought Andy Ellis was fantastic closing out that final too, Beaver got all the plaudits , but Ellis calmness in difficult circumstances probably doesnt get the credit it deserves , you just never know who you may need to rely on .
I think the cartel showed in the France pool game that it was going to be a Weepu/Ellis starting and finishing combo at the business end, barring injury to them or any further 1st 5s going down!
Ellis had his moments. I think his strength was when the game got into a slog and the rucks were a bit messy. Perhaps his early days of playing as a loosie helped that.
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@ACT-Crusader @kiwiinmelb remembering that Cowan's form simultaneously fell off a cliff.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
"Rugby: All Blacks coach Ian Foster impressed with ‘signs of growth’ in comeback win over Scotland"
No problems here. Nothing to see.
Outstanding work narrowly avoiding losing to Scotland who lost to 9th ranked Wallabies (who went on to lose to 12th ranked Italy) just 2 weeks ago.
Bloody hell is Italy 12th? World rugby is very competitive at the moment.
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If only there was another squad full of NZ players in the UK at the same time who the ABs could call upon. They may even have a guy with test experience playing at 15.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.We don't have time ffs. 10 tests. TEN is what we have between now and a QF exit. We had time in 2020 and 2021. Now we don't.
You seem to be getting a bit stressed about this. Considering none of us are party to training data, playing data,knowledge of niggling injuries, knowledge of personal leave etc etc maybe just see how it pans out?
I'd think that next year a key 23 will be used as much as possible but there will be the occasional need to deliberately give someone in the squad time if it doesn't come 'naturally'Na I'm super psyched about a coach who doesn't appear to give 2 fucks about time left and continuity.
And for some reason think that demanding he follows your thinking from an internet forum despite not having even half the information he does will somehow set the rugby world to rights?
