All Blacks vs Scotland
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Taylor and Stanley had played ONE test together prior to the 87 WC
95 Lomu Kronfeld Mehts and Osborne had 5 tests between them
2011 On top of the injury issues at 10 the back 3 practically got introduced on the way to Eden Park for the first test.
they are 3 of our 4 most successful WC's 2015 is the outlier.
Sure it's nice to have a setlled experience team with viable back-up options across the fiels, but it hardly ever happens.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@voodoo each game on its merit and all that….
I think it’s pretty difficult to draw too much from one game against one team and one against another. Refs, cards, conditions all have a huge bearing on how match results play out these days.
I think all those results show is that Scotland are an inconsistent side that can play decent footy but don’t do it often enough to win more than they lose.
There’s quite a few sides like that and Oz are clearly in that category.
Ahh, an inconsistent side, remember when we didn't used to fall into that category?
The glory days!
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I thought it was really interesting how Murphy officiated the breakdown. He clearly allowed players to compete for the ball that were leaning on other players (to the advantage of both sides at times). I’m not sure what he thought or why it appeared so different than other refs. Could it be that his interpretation was because those players being leaned on were off their feet that they were technically not part of the ruck?
Plus I thought he was very quick to blow the whistle on guys going off their feet in attacking rucks. Now I don’t mind that, but that was different to others who allow a little bit if it doesn’t necessarily impact the play.
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@ACT-Crusader one of Ardie's right on our line was hilarious, he just leaned on all the scots and picked the ball up. And got rewarded! it looked so wrong, just too easy
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I thought the Irish ref was pretty damn good actually. Everytime I thought he had it wrong, the replay showed he either had it right, or you could see why he adjudicated it the way he did.
What wasn't was the service and decision making from our scrumhalf, which flowed into the five-eighth. Then our 12 decided to have a shocker. 13 with a brain fart and then constantly offside.
Credit to TJP. His calmness and decision making was excellent in that final quarter and substantially added to our effectiveness. Anyone still suggesting Rieko should move back to the wing was clearly dropped on their head as a baby.
Defensively in the middle of the park the All Blacks structure is bewilderingly shite. Every team we come up against gets it wide and around us easily. ALB's card came from a gaping hole where the pillar should have been at the ruck. Unfathomable how that happens at test level.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader one of Ardie's right on our line was hilarious, he just leaned on all the scots and picked the ball up. And got rewarded! it looked so wrong, just too easy
In that regard he was remarkably consistent. which is all you an hope for these days.
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@mariner4life The fact we were outperformed by the Scottish back three speaks volumes. I thought the SA winger was excellent and a blueprint for a great winger.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks Vs England:
Scott Barrett is a starting lock to me, although I can see him playing at 6 next year, as well
this is the main selection conundrum. I personally love the 3 lock punch, and i personally believe we sell SB a little short at 6.
But this super direct stuff we are playing at the moment does make SB at 6 a decent option. I still think he is a little slow, and Frizzel's foot speed makes more sense, but hey, if we are just going to try and bash teams senseless lets go as big as we can.
With what we have and the WC just around the corner I like 6 S Barrett 7 Dalton 8 Ardie
And with no locks needed on the bench I would go Akira and maybe Ethan Blackadder , im not a Cane hater , fully respect what he has given us but just dont see why we need him now
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.We don't have time ffs. 10 tests. TEN is what we have between now and a QF exit. We had time in 2020 and 2021. Now we don't.
You seem to be getting a bit stressed about this. Considering none of us are party to training data, playing data,knowledge of niggling injuries, knowledge of personal leave etc etc maybe just see how it pans out?
I'd think that next year a key 23 will be used as much as possible but there will be the occasional need to deliberately give someone in the squad time if it doesn't come 'naturally' -
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
Here’s a couple of stats that may come as a surprise:
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Nonu started at 2nd 5 with nine different centres.
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Conrad started at centre with ten different 2nd 5s.
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Between 2005 and 2015 there were 45 tests that neither of them featured in the starting midfield.
Heres another stat. The played in 62 tests together. Do we have 62 tests between now and the QF?
You do understand that 62 tests came at the end of their partnership and not the beginning?
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Taylor and Stanley had played ONE test together prior to the 87 WC
95 Lomu Kronfeld Mehts and Osborne had 5 tests between them
2011 On top of the injury issues at 10 the back 3 practically got introduced on the way to Eden Park for the first test.
they are 3 of our 4 most successful WC's 2015 is the outlier.
Sure it's nice to have a setlled experience team with viable back-up options across the fiels, but it hardly ever happens.
Another example for 2011 is halfback. If you look at 2010 it was clear that Jimmy Cowan was the first choice starting halfback starting 9 matches including Wales x3, Ireland, Boks x2, Oz x2. In 2010 Weepu came off the bench in 6 matches and started 3. He hadn’t started a test match since 2008 EOYT before he got the start in 2010 Welly test vs the Boks.
Come 2011 prior to the RWC, Cowan starts tests vs Fiji Boks x2, but they give the two Bledisloe starts to Weepu.
RWC rolls on and Cowan starts the first match against Tonga. We have Weepu on the bench in the second match (vs Japan) as a reserve 1st 5 (Ellis started and Cowan was the reserve halfback). Match 3 is France our most important pool match and Henry goes to Weepu (with Ellis as reserve). Final pool match vs Canada and he starts Cowan with Ellis as the reserve. Weepu is selected as reserve 1st 5.
QF vs Argies - starts Weepu with Cowan as reserve. By this time Cruden has joined the squad and into the team.
SF vs Boks - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve. By this time Beaver has joined the squad and is named in the 22 but doesn’t play.
Final vs France - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve.
So a long winded way to say - given how it played out in the RWC with our halfback position, what happened the year prior had very little bearing IMO. The critical thing was that Weepu had experience and was called on in 2011 despite up and down form and fitness in 2010.
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@ACT-Crusader So what you are trying to say is DH starts in the WC 23 final and has a blinder?
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader So what you are trying to say is DH starts in the WC 23 final and has a blinder?
Has he been keeping his powder dry?
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Taylor and Stanley had played ONE test together prior to the 87 WC
95 Lomu Kronfeld Mehts and Osborne had 5 tests between them
2011 On top of the injury issues at 10 the back 3 practically got introduced on the way to Eden Park for the first test.
they are 3 of our 4 most successful WC's 2015 is the outlier.
Sure it's nice to have a setlled experience team with viable back-up options across the fiels, but it hardly ever happens.
Another example for 2011 is halfback. If you look at 2010 it was clear that Jimmy Cowan was the first choice starting halfback starting 9 matches including Wales x3, Ireland, Boks x2, Oz x2. In 2010 Weepu came off the bench in 6 matches and started 3. He hadn’t started a test match since 2008 EOYT before he got the start in 2010 Welly test vs the Boks.
Come 2011 prior to the RWC, Cowan starts tests vs Fiji Boks x2, but they give the two Bledisloe starts to Weepu.
RWC rolls on and Cowan starts the first match against Tonga. We have Weepu on the bench in the second match (vs Japan) as a reserve 1st 5 (Ellis started and Cowan was the reserve halfback). Match 3 is France our most important pool match and Henry goes to Weepu (with Ellis as reserve). Final pool match vs Canada and he starts Cowan with Ellis as the reserve. Weepu is selected as reserve 1st 5.
QF vs Argies - starts Weepu with Cowan as reserve. By this time Cruden has joined the squad and into the team.
SF vs Boks - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve. By this time Beaver has joined the squad and is named in the 22 but doesn’t play.
Final vs France - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve.
So a long winded way to say - given how it played out in the RWC with our halfback position, what happened the year prior had very little bearing IMO. The critical thing was that Weepu had experience and was called on in 2011 despite up and down form and fitness in 2010.
How do you remember this stuff???
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader So what you are trying to say is DH starts in the WC 23 final and has a blinder?
Or hobbles off injured in the final because both Jordie and ALB have been injured in training and the semi final, only to make way for Sevu Reece to be shifted to 2nd 5 and score a try and hold the cup aloft….
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The selectors will have a fixed number of players (33?) allowed in their RWC squad, and replacements on the other side of the world, not getting much high-level matchplay (NPC being shorn of Island and NZ squad members). So, I think it makes sense to plan your likely 33 in that squad now, and develop a number of contingency options within that group.
Last I saw we had a tough opening match, and a killer draw from quarters onwards. I would look to rest most of the top players against Uruguay and Namibia, but play the best team against France and Italy. That way we are best placed to manage our squad through three tough matches in consecutive weekends. And I would absolutely want comfort in what my plan B was if a key player needed a rest match during the knockouts- perhaps while carrying an injury, or maybe via illness. I think you also need to go into RWC with a good idea as to your best starting XV, and best finishing XV. There are 8 differences in that personnel.
Playing our best 23 week-in, week-out now makes no sense in my view, if the big goal is world cup success. But, trying out your full squad as starting and finishing combinations does make sense. It is just a shame that we seem to be let down by the starting combo too often, so that the planned finishers get less time than was intended.
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I have no idea how Nonu and Smith started so many games together, surely, they should have rested them most of the time so their backups could get time in the position in case one got injured. Also madness that the GOAT and DC started so often, very bad coaching if you ask me.
Here’s a couple of stats that may come as a surprise:
-
Nonu started at 2nd 5 with nine different centres.
-
Conrad started at centre with ten different 2nd 5s.
-
Between 2005 and 2015 there were 45 tests that neither of them featured in the starting midfield.
Heres another stat. The played in 62 tests together. Do we have 62 tests between now and the QF?
You do understand that 62 tests came at the end of their partnership and not the beginning?
Sold. Change the team at will. No need for team to click. 5 tests between now and the QF will get us to the final.
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Without a proper read of all the thread:
TJPs best test, I loved him asking the ref about them not rolling at a ruck, and then at the next ruck we get the penalty for them not rolling. He wasn't moaning, just playing the ref more professionally; with form and without flapping around, he can be quite a player off the bench.
I don't know that Beauden Barrett should be in the ABs ahead of Dmac. He's simply not a 10 and is likely a worse 15 than Dmac. I hope he can get some form next year.
Clarke should never have gone to 7s. He's regressed and isn't the right player for the 11 jersey until he can stay on his fucking feet and make some tackles.
I don't have the words to describe Havili except to say that he is a very useful Super rugby player. ALB probably doesn't have the speed to play 13 anymore, so the Chiefs could do a solid and play him at 12. His penalty on Hogg was criminally stupid.
I have to apologize to Codie Taylor, well done that man for turning it around.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Taylor and Stanley had played ONE test together prior to the 87 WC
95 Lomu Kronfeld Mehts and Osborne had 5 tests between them
2011 On top of the injury issues at 10 the back 3 practically got introduced on the way to Eden Park for the first test.
they are 3 of our 4 most successful WC's 2015 is the outlier.
Sure it's nice to have a setlled experience team with viable back-up options across the fiels, but it hardly ever happens.
Another example for 2011 is halfback. If you look at 2010 it was clear that Jimmy Cowan was the first choice starting halfback starting 9 matches including Wales x3, Ireland, Boks x2, Oz x2. In 2010 Weepu came off the bench in 6 matches and started 3. He hadn’t started a test match since 2008 EOYT before he got the start in 2010 Welly test vs the Boks.
Come 2011 prior to the RWC, Cowan starts tests vs Fiji Boks x2, but they give the two Bledisloe starts to Weepu.
RWC rolls on and Cowan starts the first match against Tonga. We have Weepu on the bench in the second match (vs Japan) as a reserve 1st 5 (Ellis started and Cowan was the reserve halfback). Match 3 is France our most important pool match and Henry goes to Weepu (with Ellis as reserve). Final pool match vs Canada and he starts Cowan with Ellis as the reserve. Weepu is selected as reserve 1st 5.
QF vs Argies - starts Weepu with Cowan as reserve. By this time Cruden has joined the squad and into the team.
SF vs Boks - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve. By this time Beaver has joined the squad and is named in the 22 but doesn’t play.
Final vs France - starts Weepu with Ellis as reserve.
So a long winded way to say - given how it played out in the RWC with our halfback position, what happened the year prior had very little bearing IMO. The critical thing was that Weepu had experience and was called on in 2011 despite up and down form and fitness in 2010.
Thought Andy Ellis was fantastic closing out that final too, Beaver got all the plaudits , but Ellis calmness in difficult circumstances probably doesnt get the credit it deserves , you just never know who you may need to rely on .
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@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Crucial said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
While your point has some validity it is also throwing all the eggs in one basket and, as pointed out, those advocting this approach would also be first in the queue to complain about a lack of contingency panning.
Yes, we know DH's limitations and that he is second choice (at best). What we also need to do is play situations that adjust around those limitations in case he is called on. In other words, would you play the same plan with JB as DH?
Certainly decide if JB/RI is the first choice paring and give then plenty of time together. What @Victor-Meldrew was suggesting is that you also have to plan for things going wrong at the same time. Sometimes that may mean a start for someone else or a shuffle.We don't have time ffs. 10 tests. TEN is what we have between now and a QF exit. We had time in 2020 and 2021. Now we don't.
You seem to be getting a bit stressed about this. Considering none of us are party to training data, playing data,knowledge of niggling injuries, knowledge of personal leave etc etc maybe just see how it pans out?
I'd think that next year a key 23 will be used as much as possible but there will be the occasional need to deliberately give someone in the squad time if it doesn't come 'naturally'Na I'm super psyched about a coach who doesn't appear to give 2 fucks about time left and continuity.
