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@voodoo said in All Black pack:
Remember when the stats like that used to be reversed and we'd have still win by 10?
Yes ... by ripping teams apart on the counterattack and scoring tries.
I was giong to post about the graphic 'but then I think of Bokke 1, where we got 3 points in 78 minutes, and am no longer surprised'.
Something is wrong with this team.
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@nzzp said in All Black pack:
@voodoo said in All Black pack:
Remember when the stats like that used to be reversed and we'd have still win by 10?
Yes ... by ripping teams apart on the counterattack and scoring tries.
I was giong to post about the graphic 'but then I think of Bokke 1, where we got 3 points in 78 minutes, and am no longer surprised'.
Something is wrong with this team.
Teams even changed the way they'd exit to put the ball 5 rows deep, costing ground but preventing the quick throw that would have undoubtedly lead to Joe Rok finishing in the corner. I can't even remember the last time I saw a quick throw leading to a counter attack.
Well, almost any counter attack actually.
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@Crucial said in All Black pack:
@antipodean said in All Black pack:
@Crucial said in All Black pack:
@antipodean said in All Black pack:
@Crucial said in All Black pack:
@BartMan said in All Black pack:
@sparky said in All Black pack:
Front five apart from Taylor okay. Vaii needs more gametime.
Backrow not working. Ardie empties the tank every week but he's not a natural 8. Flankers get outplayed by the opposition in most games.
Starting Back row: Akira Ioane, Papali'i, Sotutu. Ardie off the bench.
Won't happen though because Foster has his favourites.
I would not have Akira in the team, your perfect flat track bully. So I'd go Papali'i at 6, as he's more than big enough for that spot physicallly. Ardi at 7, his natural position, and a real 8 at 8, would go with Grace, but he's broken and not in squad, so that leaves Sotutu, give him plenty of game time. Sam Cane joins Cody Taylor in the needs a huge super season to be back in black.
I think maybe his Blues supporters may finally be seeing that. Did he come on last night just so he could fall over?
When you are competing for a spot with someone that apparently has more drive than you at least you can make an effort when carrying FFS. He was carrying like George Bridge.
Waste of good fotballing talent because either no one tells him, or he doesn't listen, that he isn't the strongest kid in the playground any more.
I'd love to see the guy in the team so when all the hard work is done an opportunity appears to show the talent but he doesn't want to contribute to the hard work.In 14 minutes he carried the ball seven times. A carry every two minutes compared to Frizell's every eight and Savea's every seven. He also made more tackles per minute which would suggest his workrate isn't an issue. By the time he came on Argentina had a lead and were defending for the game.
I'd suggest that is the role of the fresh legs forward. To do the carrying for the other more tired players. They would be looking for him every time.
What did he do with all those carries except an Owen Franks impression?Made metres. More per carry than Newell, Cane, Groot, Whitelock. Christ, Frizell made more than our #8.
Put another way, how many carries and metres should he have made to satisfy you?
If that's the case then I take that back. I don't have the stats but when watching I saw quite a number of very ineffective carries. How do his metres per carry compare to Frizzell? I guess I could bear watching again to see whether the stats tell the story.
Frizell made metres from a couple of good runs in the first half when the ABs were generally on top. By the time Akira came on for his 15 odd minutes there was an Argentine brick wall and both Frizell and Akira were carting it up like the rest of the team trying to build pressure. He's not a magician though.
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@broughie said in All Black pack:
@voodoo just rewatched, and not to be apologist for Akira, but those stats appear erroneous. He is flat footed though. Greater problems where the penalties, poor throws and panic off loads, why the subbed ST etc etc.
What about Whitelock? 7 runs for 1 metre didn't seem too flash...they also gave him zero line out wins which I thought didn't seem ideal for your senior lock, until.i realised you have to be a Hooker to earn a win 🤣
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Those stats don't show the awful breakdown work by the ABs.
The only breakdown turnover I can remember ABs winning was De Groot.
Meanwhile in attack there was numerous occasions where the ABs couldn't clean the Argies out (or Havili for sealing after Caleb's kickoff reception etc).
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@nzzp said in All Black pack:
@voodoo thanks for the link.
Looking at the graphics below, it beggars belief we lost
I thought exactly the same and then my mind went to the dark years of 2009 where teams could win by not playing rugby. Right now we're incapable of shaping defences that want to play league. It's double difficult when you have refereeing interpretations like last night where only the attacking team are watched at rucks.
A decade ago we'd never have lost this after half time.
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@broughie said in All Black pack:
@voodoo other than being excellent in line outs he has not been an effective ball runner for ages. So I would not have expected much from him.
Yeah, but...did he do 1 x 1m run then 6 for zero??? Or 5 x 10cm then 2 x 25cm?
I need to rewatch...
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I got rissoles for posting last night without reading prior comments but what prompted me was that I thought Akira was subbed on to add go forward after Sami came off. But I thought only Bower did that. I watched Akira closely and thought he did not try to run hard on to the ball. He was mostly walking upright into contact. Surprised Vaii did not come on. I thought we were primed to overrun the puma forwards after a good first 50. But there was no impetus after that.
The other thing I noticed was a lack of urgency by Caleb Clarke on defence. Not the first time.
Our players seem to go through the motions at times and can mostly get away with it at super level if from a strong team.
I hope the coaches concentrate on extracting those extra efforts much more often. At test level the great players make the extra effort in case it makes a difference. -
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
The crappy game plan and selections are on him,
This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.I agree.
But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.
This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.
I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.OK, so let's move this on a bit.
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How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?
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What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
The crappy game plan and selections are on him,
This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.I agree.
But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.
This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.
I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.OK, so let's move this on a bit.
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How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?
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What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?
Do you give a new Bloke as long as Foster has had 3 years.
That seems fair If Foster has had 3 years to stuff it up.How can you judge a new bloke on a shorter time span,if it has taken 3 years to decide Foster is not up to it.
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@Chris said in All Black pack:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
The crappy game plan and selections are on him,
This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.I agree.
But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.
This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.
I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.OK, so let's move this on a bit.
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How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?
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What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?
Do you give a new Bloke as long as Foster has had 3 years.
That seems fair If Foster has had 3 years to stuff it up.How can you judge a new bloke on a shorter time span,if it has taken 3 years to decide Foster is not up to it.
Why bother changing horses then? Three years down the track to find you're on just another donkey.
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@antipodean said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
The crappy game plan and selections are on him,
This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.I agree.
But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.
This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.
I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.OK, so let's move this on a bit.
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How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?
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What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?
Do you give a new Bloke as long as Foster has had 3 years.
That seems fair If Foster has had 3 years to stuff it up.How can you judge a new bloke on a shorter time span,if it has taken 3 years to decide Foster is not up to it.
Why bother changing horses then? Three years down the track to find you're on just another donkey.
Because you have to change sometime or is Foster Hc for ever.
If that is your thinking we will never have another AB coach, A coach is not going to take on the job unless there is some sort of job security.
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@Chris said in All Black pack:
@antipodean said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
The crappy game plan and selections are on him,
This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.I agree.
But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.
This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.
I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.OK, so let's move this on a bit.
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How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?
-
What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?
Do you give a new Bloke as long as Foster has had 3 years.
That seems fair If Foster has had 3 years to stuff it up.How can you judge a new bloke on a shorter time span,if it has taken 3 years to decide Foster is not up to it.
Why bother changing horses then? Three years down the track to find you're on just another donkey.
Because you have to change sometime or is Foster Hc for ever.
That's not the question nor the argument. We either want a new coach to improve things especially in the forwards or we don't. There's no point in getting rid of Foster if it doesn't lead to improvements.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
The crappy game plan and selections are on him,
This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.I agree.
But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.
This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.
I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.OK, so let's move this on a bit.
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How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?
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What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?
He's got until the RWC, and if they get out of their pool that is a bonus compared to Foster
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@Chris said in All Black pack:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
@Chris said in All Black pack:
@nzzp said in All Black pack:
The crappy game plan and selections are on him,
This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.I agree.
But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.
This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.
I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.OK, so let's move this on a bit.
-
How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?
-
What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?
Do you give a new Bloke as long as Foster has had 3 years.
That seems fair If Foster has had 3 years to stuff it up.How can you judge a new bloke on a shorter time span,if it has taken 3 years to decide Foster is not up to it.
Well, as this isn't the Foster thread, I was referring to improvements in the forwards more than anything else, the metrics around that improvement and what could be done to meet them.
But I don't think another three years of sub-par performances with no corrective plans in place - just as long as it isn't Foster in charge - is a valid option.
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@nzzp said in All Black pack:
Something is wrong with this team.
yep, and I think most of it has to do with what happens before kick off, absolutely nothing going right from woe to go and shows the moment the heat comes on, these guys buckle and start making errors.
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@nzzp said in All Black pack:
@voodoo thanks for the link.
Looking at the graphics below, it beggars belief we lost
Now include penalties conceded. Discipline wins you Tests in the 2020s. There is no point pretending the game is the same as it was 10 years ago. The sooner everyone involved in NZ Rugby realises this, then the sooner this thing gets turned around.
