All Black pack

antipodean

@voodoo thanks for the link.

Looking at the graphics below, it beggars belief we lost

I thought exactly the same and then my mind went to the dark years of 2009 where teams could win by not playing rugby. Right now we're incapable of shaping defences that want to play league. It's double difficult when you have refereeing interpretations like last night where only the attacking team are watched at rucks.

A decade ago we'd never have lost this after half time.

broughie

@voodoo other than being excellent in line outs he has not been an effective ball runner for ages. So I would not have expected much from him.

voodoo

@broughie said in All Black pack:

@voodoo other than being excellent in line outs he has not been an effective ball runner for ages. So I would not have expected much from him.

Yeah, but...did he do 1 x 1m run then 6 for zero??? Or 5 x 10cm then 2 x 25cm?

I need to rewatch...

broughie

@voodoo Converting to cm inflates the numbers a little.

ARHS

I got rissoles for posting last night without reading prior comments but what prompted me was that I thought Akira was subbed on to add go forward after Sami came off. But I thought only Bower did that. I watched Akira closely and thought he did not try to run hard on to the ball. He was mostly walking upright into contact. Surprised Vaii did not come on. I thought we were primed to overrun the puma forwards after a good first 50. But there was no impetus after that.
The other thing I noticed was a lack of urgency by Caleb Clarke on defence. Not the first time.
Our players seem to go through the motions at times and can mostly get away with it at super level if from a strong team.
I hope the coaches concentrate on extracting those extra efforts much more often. At test level the great players make the extra effort in case it makes a difference.

Victor Meldrew

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

The crappy game plan and selections are on him,

This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.

I agree.

But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.

This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.

I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.

OK, so let's move this on a bit.

How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?
What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?

Chris

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

The crappy game plan and selections are on him,

This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.

I agree.

But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.

This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.

I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.

OK, so let's move this on a bit.

How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?

What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?

Do you give a new Bloke as long as Foster has had 3 years.
That seems fair If Foster has had 3 years to stuff it up.

How can you judge a new bloke on a shorter time span,if it has taken 3 years to decide Foster is not up to it.

antipodean

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

The crappy game plan and selections are on him,

This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.

I agree.

But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.

This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.

I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.

OK, so let's move this on a bit.

How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?

What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?

Do you give a new Bloke as long as Foster has had 3 years.
That seems fair If Foster has had 3 years to stuff it up.

How can you judge a new bloke on a shorter time span,if it has taken 3 years to decide Foster is not up to it.

Why bother changing horses then? Three years down the track to find you're on just another donkey.

Chris

@antipodean said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

The crappy game plan and selections are on him,

This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.

I agree.

But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.

This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.

I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.

OK, so let's move this on a bit.

How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?

What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?

Do you give a new Bloke as long as Foster has had 3 years.
That seems fair If Foster has had 3 years to stuff it up.

How can you judge a new bloke on a shorter time span,if it has taken 3 years to decide Foster is not up to it.

Why bother changing horses then? Three years down the track to find you're on just another donkey.

Because you have to change sometime or is Foster Hc for ever.

If that is your thinking we will never have another AB coach, A coach is not going to take on the job unless there is some sort of job security.

Victor Meldrew

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@antipodean said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

The crappy game plan and selections are on him,

This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.

I agree.

But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.

This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.

I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.

OK, so let's move this on a bit.

How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?

What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?

Do you give a new Bloke as long as Foster has had 3 years.
That seems fair If Foster has had 3 years to stuff it up.

How can you judge a new bloke on a shorter time span,if it has taken 3 years to decide Foster is not up to it.

Why bother changing horses then? Three years down the track to find you're on just another donkey.

Because you have to change sometime or is Foster Hc for ever.

That's not the question nor the argument. We either want a new coach to improve things especially in the forwards or we don't. There's no point in getting rid of Foster if it doesn't lead to improvements.

Machpants

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

The crappy game plan and selections are on him,

This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.

I agree.

But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.

This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.

I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.

OK, so let's move this on a bit.

How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?

What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?

He's got until the RWC, and if they get out of their pool that is a bonus compared to Foster

Victor Meldrew

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

The crappy game plan and selections are on him,

This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.

I agree.

But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.

This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.

I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.

OK, so let's move this on a bit.

How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?

What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?

Do you give a new Bloke as long as Foster has had 3 years.
That seems fair If Foster has had 3 years to stuff it up.

How can you judge a new bloke on a shorter time span,if it has taken 3 years to decide Foster is not up to it.

Well, as this isn't the Foster thread, I was referring to improvements in the forwards more than anything else, the metrics around that improvement and what could be done to meet them.

But I don't think another three years of sub-par performances with no corrective plans in place - just as long as it isn't Foster in charge - is a valid option.

taniwharugby

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

Something is wrong with this team.

yep, and I think most of it has to do with what happens before kick off, absolutely nothing going right from woe to go and shows the moment the heat comes on, these guys buckle and start making errors.

sparky

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

@voodoo thanks for the link.

Looking at the graphics below, it beggars belief we lost

Now include penalties conceded. Discipline wins you Tests in the 2020s. There is no point pretending the game is the same as it was 10 years ago. The sooner everyone involved in NZ Rugby realises this, then the sooner this thing gets turned around.

Chris

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

The crappy game plan and selections are on him,

This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.

I agree.

But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.

This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.

I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.

OK, so let's move this on a bit.

How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?

What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?

Do you give a new Bloke as long as Foster has had 3 years.
That seems fair If Foster has had 3 years to stuff it up.

How can you judge a new bloke on a shorter time span,if it has taken 3 years to decide Foster is not up to it.

Well, as this isn't the Foster thread, I was referring to improvements in the forwards more than anything else, the metrics around that improvement and what could be done to meet them.

But I don't think another three years of sub-par performances with no corrective plans in place - just as long as it isn't Foster in charge - is a valid option.

I think the problem you will find no decent coach is going to take on the AB coaching job on a limited leash.

England, among others will be looking for new coaches after the WC.

A highly paid longer term gig looks looks a lot better than a short time job to fix up a hell of a mess not of the new coaches making.

The mess the AB's are in it is not the primo job everyone thinks it is .
In fact it is looking more like the worst coaching job in Rugby every loss under Foster.

If you know people with in the NZ rugby scene they will tell you its a job not many want now.

MiketheSnow

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

The crappy game plan and selections are on him,

This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.

I agree.

But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.

This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.

I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.

OK, so let's move this on a bit.

How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?

What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?

Do you give a new Bloke as long as Foster has had 3 years.
That seems fair If Foster has had 3 years to stuff it up.

How can you judge a new bloke on a shorter time span,if it has taken 3 years to decide Foster is not up to it.

Well, as this isn't the Foster thread, I was referring to improvements in the forwards more than anything else, the metrics around that improvement and what could be done to meet them.

But I don't think another three years of sub-par performances with no corrective plans in place - just as long as it isn't Foster in charge - is a valid option.

I think the problem you will find no decent coach is going to take on the AB coaching job on a limited leash.

England, among others will be looking for new coaches after the WC.

A highly paid longer term gig looks looks a lot better than a short time job to fix up a hell of a mess not of the new coaches making.

The mess the AB's are in it is not the primo job everyone thinks it is .
In fact it looking ,more like the worst coaching job in Rugby every loss under Foster.

If you know people with in the NZ rugby scene they will tell you its a job not many want now.

Fuck I’d be champing

Nothing to lose. Nothing.

You fail, it’s a systemic problem not of your making.

You succeed, then it’s legendary hero status for life.

Any coach not wanting this opportunity now is not the coach you want anyway.

This is Hollywood ‘Rocky’ time

sparky

@Chris I think for Razor taking the England job after Eddie Jones retires ahead of the ABs will be close to a no brainer. More money, better tenure, more independence, bigger playing pool, not dealing with a board who repeatedly messed him around and thought duffer Foster was the better coach.

taniwharugby

@MiketheSnow there's that side too!

Guess the upside is, Fozzie reckons they are close, so a new coach might be the new voice that gets them there....

Chris

@MiketheSnow said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@Victor-Meldrew said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

@Chris said in All Black pack:

@nzzp said in All Black pack:

The crappy game plan and selections are on him,

This is Foster right through from his Chiefs days.
And he is coaching and selecting the AB's ,seems to me not the right choice and nothing will change while he is there.

I agree.

But - the problems go deeper than just Foster. As @Victor-Meldrew keeps pointing out, new coaches will still have to deal with the cattle.

This would should have been cauterised after Irealnd 3,a nd everyone would be moving forward. Someone used the word 'dithering' in another thread - sums up NZR beautifully.

I agree there is more than Foster as the problem, but for me its a great place to start.
We have to change the fixable now and that is Foster gone then sort the rest as we can.

OK, so let's move this on a bit.

How long to you give the new bloke to show real improvements? As measures are important, how many Tests?

What do you do if/when the new bloke doesn't improve things (apart from the initial improvement any new change in management brings)?

Do you give a new Bloke as long as Foster has had 3 years.
That seems fair If Foster has had 3 years to stuff it up.

How can you judge a new bloke on a shorter time span,if it has taken 3 years to decide Foster is not up to it.

Well, as this isn't the Foster thread, I was referring to improvements in the forwards more than anything else, the metrics around that improvement and what could be done to meet them.

But I don't think another three years of sub-par performances with no corrective plans in place - just as long as it isn't Foster in charge - is a valid option.

I think the problem you will find no decent coach is going to take on the AB coaching job on a limited leash.

England, among others will be looking for new coaches after the WC.

A highly paid longer term gig looks looks a lot better than a short time job to fix up a hell of a mess not of the new coaches making.

The mess the AB's are in it is not the primo job everyone thinks it is .
In fact it looking ,more like the worst coaching job in Rugby every loss under Foster.

If you know people with in the NZ rugby scene they will tell you its a job not many want now.

Fuck I’d be champing

Nothing to lose. Nothing.

You fail, it’s a systemic problem not of your making.

You succeed, then it’s legendary hero status for life.

Any coach not wanting this opportunity now is not the coach you want anyway.

This is Hollywood ‘Rocky’ time

Put you name forward you might be the only one .

Bovidae

@KiwiMurph said in All Black pack:

Meanwhile in attack there was numerous occasions where the ABs couldn't clean the Argies out (or Havili for sealing after Caleb's kickoff reception etc).

Another example was Clarke stuffing up for the Mo'unga turnover by slipping over FFS.

The Silver Fern

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