Worst AB Captain
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@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@nostrildamus said in Worst AB Captain:
Quick question regards Cane after reading today's stuff article "Ian Foster's logic matched by his All Blacks' baffling form" by Duncan Johnstone
This is captain Cane who has been replaced in the second half in four of this year’s six tests, a statistic that does little to boost the public questioning of his place at openside flanker or the need for leadership in the final quarter when these All Blacks have regularly been found wanting.Were any of those 4 replacements for injury and did Cane's replacement seem to help/improve their performance or not?
Slipper the Aus captain has been replaced in all his 3 games as captain, means f*** all really.
different, props don't last 80 these days,Dumb choice for a Captain.
McCaw didn't get subbed or Read and they are LF's like Cane it means a great deal when you sub your Captain, in AB's it just hasn't happened before except for injury.
Not here to rain on the parade, but 20 times in his 111 as captain.
Most were blow outs and many inside the last 10 minutes to go.
The most memorable sub of McCaw was that Baabaas loss in 09 and he was subbed at half time.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Worst AB Captain:
@broughie said in Worst AB Captain:
@Kiwiwomble sure. Is Cane that person?
im not the best game analyst but i dont remember cane popping up with the ball as much as other 7's, im probably wrong but i feel he's doing the tackling that other countries would have their tights forwards doing and so he's not on the tacklers shoulder looking for the ball
He's being used in a funny way. He is providing short passing links a bit like BBBR used to do years ago but behind the advantage line. I can't tell if this is an idea to draw in and hold a defender with a late short pop to take advantage but it doesn't really seem to work once seen a couple of times as defenders are holding off him in anticipation anyway.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Worst AB Captain:
@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@nostrildamus said in Worst AB Captain:
Quick question regards Cane after reading today's stuff article "Ian Foster's logic matched by his All Blacks' baffling form" by Duncan Johnstone
This is captain Cane who has been replaced in the second half in four of this year’s six tests, a statistic that does little to boost the public questioning of his place at openside flanker or the need for leadership in the final quarter when these All Blacks have regularly been found wanting.Were any of those 4 replacements for injury and did Cane's replacement seem to help/improve their performance or not?
Slipper the Aus captain has been replaced in all his 3 games as captain, means f*** all really.
different, props don't last 80 these days,Dumb choice for a Captain.
McCaw didn't get subbed or Read and they are LF's like Cane it means a great deal when you sub your Captain, in AB's it just hasn't happened before except for injury.
Not here to rain on the parade, but 20 times in his 111 as captain.
Most were blow outs and many inside the last 10 minutes to go.
The most memorable sub of McCaw was that Baabaas loss in 09 and he was subbed at half time.
Ok fair enough McCaw would have the mana for it to work in a losing team not a confident look.
McCaw also started games with many injuries including a broken foot maybe it was managing those injuries.
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@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@nostrildamus said in Worst AB Captain:
Quick question regards Cane after reading today's stuff article "Ian Foster's logic matched by his All Blacks' baffling form" by Duncan Johnstone
This is captain Cane who has been replaced in the second half in four of this year’s six tests, a statistic that does little to boost the public questioning of his place at openside flanker or the need for leadership in the final quarter when these All Blacks have regularly been found wanting.Were any of those 4 replacements for injury and did Cane's replacement seem to help/improve their performance or not?
Slipper the Aus captain has been replaced in all his 3 games as captain, means f*** all really.
different, props don't last 80 these days,Dumb choice for a Captain.
McCaw didn't get subbed or Read and they are LF's like Cane it means a great deal when you sub your Captain, in AB's it just hasn't happened before except for injury.
Why does anyone say but McCaw didn't or did do anything, you know he has retired and was probably one of best players to play the game. I have seen many captains replaced Kolisi, does, I have seen George Gregan replaced,,Dylan Hartley,for England,,Sam Warburton for Lions and Wales etc, it's not that unusual to be honest. Christ even DuPont probably the best 9 on the planet and captain gets subbed.
Whoops and just McCaw has been subbed. It's not a big thing to sub captains, , Fren -
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@nostrildamus said in Worst AB Captain:
Quick question regards Cane after reading today's stuff article "Ian Foster's logic matched by his All Blacks' baffling form" by Duncan Johnstone
This is captain Cane who has been replaced in the second half in four of this year’s six tests, a statistic that does little to boost the public questioning of his place at openside flanker or the need for leadership in the final quarter when these All Blacks have regularly been found wanting.Were any of those 4 replacements for injury and did Cane's replacement seem to help/improve their performance or not?
Slipper the Aus captain has been replaced in all his 3 games as captain, means f*** all really.
different, props don't last 80 these days,Dumb choice for a Captain.
McCaw didn't get subbed or Read and they are LF's like Cane it means a great deal when you sub your Captain, in AB's it just hasn't happened before except for injury.
Why does anyone say but McCaw didn't or did do anything, you know he has retired and was probably one of best players to play the game. I have seen many captains replaced Kolisi, does, I have seen George Gregan replaced,,Dylan Hartley,for England,,Sam Warburton for Lions and Wales etc, it's not that unusual to be honest. Christ even DuPont probably the best 9 on the planet and captain gets subbed.
Whoops and just McCaw has been subbed. It's not a big thing to sub captains, , FrenNot a good look when you are losing all the time the Captain is getting bagged in the media and by a lot of people and the Coach Drags him 4 games in a row.
That is not a good look throws petrol on the fire.
Bad coaching. -
Has anyone mentioned Blackadder yet in this thread? Such a limited player
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@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@nostrildamus said in Worst AB Captain:
Quick question regards Cane after reading today's stuff article "Ian Foster's logic matched by his All Blacks' baffling form" by Duncan Johnstone
This is captain Cane who has been replaced in the second half in four of this year’s six tests, a statistic that does little to boost the public questioning of his place at openside flanker or the need for leadership in the final quarter when these All Blacks have regularly been found wanting.Were any of those 4 replacements for injury and did Cane's replacement seem to help/improve their performance or not?
Slipper the Aus captain has been replaced in all his 3 games as captain, means f*** all really.
different, props don't last 80 these days,Dumb choice for a Captain.
McCaw didn't get subbed or Read and they are LF's like Cane it means a great deal when you sub your Captain, in AB's it just hasn't happened before except for injury.
Why does anyone say but McCaw didn't or did do anything, you know he has retired and was probably one of best players to play the game. I have seen many captains replaced Kolisi, does, I have seen George Gregan replaced,,Dylan Hartley,for England,,Sam Warburton for Lions and Wales etc, it's not that unusual to be honest. Christ even DuPont probably the best 9 on the planet and captain gets subbed.
Whoops and just McCaw has been subbed. It's not a big thing to sub captains, , FrenNot a good look when you are losing all the time the Captain is getting bagged in the media and by a lot of people and the Coach Drags him 4 games in a row.
That is not a good look throws petrol on the fire.
Bad coaching.They also dragged Samisoni at the 45 minute mark so I'd not read anything into their subs, they just seem to be completely fucking random
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- Blackadder
- Randal
- Cane
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@No-Quarter said in Worst AB Captain:
Has anyone mentioned Blackadder yet in this thread? Such a limited player
Wish I was that limited.
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@No-Quarter said in Worst AB Captain:
@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@nostrildamus said in Worst AB Captain:
Quick question regards Cane after reading today's stuff article "Ian Foster's logic matched by his All Blacks' baffling form" by Duncan Johnstone
This is captain Cane who has been replaced in the second half in four of this year’s six tests, a statistic that does little to boost the public questioning of his place at openside flanker or the need for leadership in the final quarter when these All Blacks have regularly been found wanting.Were any of those 4 replacements for injury and did Cane's replacement seem to help/improve their performance or not?
Slipper the Aus captain has been replaced in all his 3 games as captain, means f*** all really.
different, props don't last 80 these days,Dumb choice for a Captain.
McCaw didn't get subbed or Read and they are LF's like Cane it means a great deal when you sub your Captain, in AB's it just hasn't happened before except for injury.
Why does anyone say but McCaw didn't or did do anything, you know he has retired and was probably one of best players to play the game. I have seen many captains replaced Kolisi, does, I have seen George Gregan replaced,,Dylan Hartley,for England,,Sam Warburton for Lions and Wales etc, it's not that unusual to be honest. Christ even DuPont probably the best 9 on the planet and captain gets subbed.
Whoops and just McCaw has been subbed. It's not a big thing to sub captains, , FrenNot a good look when you are losing all the time the Captain is getting bagged in the media and by a lot of people and the Coach Drags him 4 games in a row.
That is not a good look throws petrol on the fire.
Bad coaching.They also dragged Samisoni at the 45 minute mark so I'd not read anything into their subs, they just seem to be completely fucking random
thats one of my points though bad coaching.But ST isn't the leader.
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Not a good look when you are losing all the time the Captain is getting bagged in the media and by a lot of people and the Coach Drags him 4 games in a row.
That is not a good look throws petrol on the fire.
Bad coaching.It happens all the time in test rugby if you watch other teams. Why are posters ignoring the explanation given by Ian Foster? You sub your best ball carrier in Taukeiaho within a front row swap, so then you bring on a sub loosie to act as the prime ball carrier. You ditch the fetcher role of Cane as Savea comes into his own in the last 20. The only issue is that when Cane has been subbed we have not had enough energy from the sub role and have lost a lot of continuity with that.
Each time Cane has gone off I thought we had worked ourselves into a winning position and our subs would speed things up more than the opposition could contain.
Sadly our subs have brought too many errors and actually slowed the go forward momentum. -
@ARHS said in Worst AB Captain:
Not a good look when you are losing all the time the Captain is getting bagged in the media and by a lot of people and the Coach Drags him 4 games in a row.
That is not a good look throws petrol on the fire.
Bad coaching.It happens all the time in test rugby if you watch other teams. Why are posters ignoring the explanation given by Ian Foster? You sub your best ball carrier in Taukeiaho within a front row swap, so then you bring on a sub loosie to act as the prime ball carrier. You ditch the fetcher role of Cane as Savea comes into his own in the last 20. The only issue is that when Cane has been subbed we have not had enough energy from the sub role and have lost a lot of continuity with that.
Each time Cane has gone off I thought we had worked ourselves into a winning position and our subs would speed things up more than the opposition could contain.
Sadly our subs have brought too many errors and actually slowed the go forward momentum.What is Savea and Frizzll if not main ball carriers as well' why do All 3 Lfs have to be ball carriers.If the game is opening up why don't they keep the link player to continue the game flow.
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@No-Quarter said in Worst AB Captain:
Has anyone mentioned Blackadder yet in this thread? Such a limited player
Yeah but I’d argue he was a great captain.
No doubt he was picked as a captain first and a player second.
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@taniwharugby said in Worst AB Captain:
@nzzp I think our skills (seeming lack of) are just another symptom of the pressure these guys are under.
I'm getting increasingly convinced it's the collective yips from the senior players and they feel like they have no control/confidence over the situation when things go wrong. When things don't go well, they either play brilliantly for 20 minutes and then fuck up so there's no reward for the effort, or simply just fuck-up - Taylor's throwing as an example. Seems to have been an issue for a while. Can't blame Cane for that - it's a collective thing.
They didn't look like they were enjoying themselves on Saturday - unlike Ellis Park. Ironically, the collective thinking in Boer II may have been, "bugger it, we've got nothing to loose now, lets just relax and enjoy ourselves".
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@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@nostrildamus said in Worst AB Captain:
Quick question regards Cane after reading today's stuff article "Ian Foster's logic matched by his All Blacks' baffling form" by Duncan Johnstone
This is captain Cane who has been replaced in the second half in four of this year’s six tests, a statistic that does little to boost the public questioning of his place at openside flanker or the need for leadership in the final quarter when these All Blacks have regularly been found wanting.Were any of those 4 replacements for injury and did Cane's replacement seem to help/improve their performance or not?
Slipper the Aus captain has been replaced in all his 3 games as captain, means f*** all really.
different, props don't last 80 these days,Dumb choice for a Captain.
McCaw didn't get subbed or Read and they are LF's like Cane it means a great deal when you sub your Captain, in AB's it just hasn't happened before except for injury.
Why does anyone say but McCaw didn't or did do anything, you know he has retired and was probably one of best players to play the game. I have seen many captains replaced Kolisi, does, I have seen George Gregan replaced,,Dylan Hartley,for England,,Sam Warburton for Lions and Wales etc, it's not that unusual to be honest. Christ even DuPont probably the best 9 on the planet and captain gets subbed.
Whoops and just McCaw has been subbed. It's not a big thing to sub captains, , FrenNot a good look when you are losing all the time the Captain is getting bagged in the media and by a lot of people and the Coach Drags him 4 games in a row.
That is not a good look throws petrol on the fire.
Bad coaching.Unless it's part of the game plan to bring on a different style of player (say, impact) for the last 10-20 minutes. If you hold to the idea that captaincy is of less importance than player ability & fit into the game plan, it does make sense.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Worst AB Captain:
@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@Chris said in Worst AB Captain:
@Dan54 said in Worst AB Captain:
@nostrildamus said in Worst AB Captain:
Quick question regards Cane after reading today's stuff article "Ian Foster's logic matched by his All Blacks' baffling form" by Duncan Johnstone
This is captain Cane who has been replaced in the second half in four of this year’s six tests, a statistic that does little to boost the public questioning of his place at openside flanker or the need for leadership in the final quarter when these All Blacks have regularly been found wanting.Were any of those 4 replacements for injury and did Cane's replacement seem to help/improve their performance or not?
Slipper the Aus captain has been replaced in all his 3 games as captain, means f*** all really.
different, props don't last 80 these days,Dumb choice for a Captain.
McCaw didn't get subbed or Read and they are LF's like Cane it means a great deal when you sub your Captain, in AB's it just hasn't happened before except for injury.
Why does anyone say but McCaw didn't or did do anything, you know he has retired and was probably one of best players to play the game. I have seen many captains replaced Kolisi, does, I have seen George Gregan replaced,,Dylan Hartley,for England,,Sam Warburton for Lions and Wales etc, it's not that unusual to be honest. Christ even DuPont probably the best 9 on the planet and captain gets subbed.
Whoops and just McCaw has been subbed. It's not a big thing to sub captains, , FrenNot a good look when you are losing all the time the Captain is getting bagged in the media and by a lot of people and the Coach Drags him 4 games in a row.
That is not a good look throws petrol on the fire.
Bad coaching.Unless it's part of the game plan to bring on a different style of player (say, impact) for the last 10-20 minutes. If you hold to the idea that captaincy is of less importance than player ability & fit into the game plan, it does make sense.
To be honest I don’t see a lot of tactical ability in the coaching at the moment.
So I question a lot of what I am seeing at the moment.
My faith in them has eroded by a large amount. -
@Crucial said in Worst AB Captain:
@nzzp said in Worst AB Captain:
@broughie same problem with Kieran Read last rwc. His form disappeared but he was locked in as captain and no appetite for change.
Cane is a tremendous human, and was a bloody good rugby player. He's not putting that out there at the moment though, and that's where the issues start. Far away from our worst captain though, he is copping blame for a dysfunctional coaching and selecting unit
Only disagree with “that’s where the issues start”. We aren’t losing games from the openside. We are losing games because we are allowing ourselves to be put under pressure then not coping well with said pressure.
Easiest way to stop teams getting in your face is to turn them around. Why do our 10s not understand this basic concept? Either pin them back and make them play their way out or kick to space with a chase. Put pressure back on them.I'm going to disagree with your "we aren't losing games at openside" statement.
Over the last 20 years under both McCaw and pre-2020 Cane quick turnovers at ruck time/counter-attack become a key attacking weapon for counter-attacking. France/Ireland/South Africa all utilise this at as many rucks as possible while Canes approach following injuries in 2020 has been to get the tackled player on the ground, roll away and get up
to make the next tackle.While Cane puts in immense defensive efforts in almost every game, it does result in him appearing exhausted (and why he gets subbed). He's working harder rather than smarter...
Finally, I don't believe Cane works well with his team mates to make the team better than the individuals - we don't see Cane and 2/6/8 working as pairs to get turnovers. We rarely see Cane getting turnovers as they are usually individual efforts by Ardie.
While these individual points may not be the moments that "cost us games", they are key areas that the All Blacks did well in the last few decades to ensure that pressure was on the opposition rather than us.
As a player, I think Cane has been invaluable in the past. I'm not convinced he was a captain and if he was, he's reached the point where he's neither a good enough player to his position or a good enough captain to justify keeping better players from playing.
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@PecoTrain said in Worst AB Captain:
quick turnovers at ruck time/counter-attack become a key attacking weapon for counter-attacking.
I'm going to disagree with the assumption that openside was necessarily the source of said turnovers. Nothing at all to back it up, but I'd be quite surprised to find that McCaw consistently topped the turnover count. Read, Kaino, Whitelock, Retallick, Coles, various backs...heck even Taylor up until a couple of years ago were all excellent exponents.
