Foster, Robertson etc
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@nostrildamus said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
He provided continuity and had a c. 80% success ratio when they re-appointed him in August '21. Sure, he'd lost to Argentina for the first time (as Hansen had to Ireland) but the other losses were narrow ones to Oz and SA, so there's a reasonable argument for them to say they'd made the right choice. Despite all the negativity around then, the wheels only really started to fall off bigtime on the 2021 EOTY.
I don't recall many on the Fern saying that at the time.
The Fern is the Font of all Knowledge.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@nostrildamus said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
He provided continuity and had a c. 80% success ratio when they re-appointed him in August '21. Sure, he'd lost to Argentina for the first time (as Hansen had to Ireland) but the other losses were narrow ones to Oz and SA, so there's a reasonable argument for them to say they'd made the right choice. Despite all the negativity around then, the wheels only really started to fall off bigtime on the 2021 EOTY.
I don't recall many on the Fern saying that at the time.
The Fern is the Font of all Knowledge.
Possibly. But in lower case.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@canefan said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Frank said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
No, the problems go much deeper than just the Coaching set-up and they need addressing as well.
What are those problems?
One example: Our two premier locks are 31 & 33 and nearing the end of their shelf-life. We've had 10+ years to identify succession options and it's been a known problem since 2016. Who do we have?
Now either the player pool in NZ is better and deeper than anywhere in the world and coaching teams haven't picked the right players for the last 6 years, or we've been deluding ourselves and our pool of cattle ain't that great. Who has analysed that and put fixes in place all those years ago? Did anyone?
We know Foster is definitely one, but what are the others?
I'm not sure Foster is the main problem as we've been on a downward trend since 2016, but he ain't the man to fix the problems he can fix either.
Shag became increasingly unable to usher in young talent as he went on. Off the top of my head, Luatua was one guy who we hoped would be good, but he left. BBBR and Whitelock are in the top drawer of locks to play for the ABs. Like so many other positions we have struggled to find immediate replacements. I think in part this is also a problem when you get such longevity from great players, they block the way for a whole generation of young players who then leave
Always think Hansen was on a wing and a prayer to get a RWC2019 win and development was not his priority.
And ironically, though we may bemoan his not selecting our favourite players, Foster has at least tried to address this. Balance aside, our 6/7/8 options are strong and he deserves credit for that.
My assessment of post-RWC2016 was that Shag was looking to replace key positions (centres and 6) and bring new talent through. Injuries in the centre talent pool pretty much ruined any chance of getting that area resolved and the 6's that they invested time in just didn't pan out. Cane did work out as a decent McCaw replacement at this point.
We then had the MacKenzie injury that forced the Beauden/Ritchie experiment, the BBBR injury that meant we brought in another Barrett and finally Franks losing form.
Post-RWC2019 and with further retirements, Foster still had the centres and 6 to fill but now also a captain, an 8 and ideally some more depth in the propping and lock stock. I'd argue that Cane is not a first choice pick any more (he may put in the tackles, but he rarely gets in a position to contest turnovers the way his opposite did and I'm unconvinced that Ardie and Cane work well together) so would argue Foster has a whole loose trio to find/get working well together. I'll give Foster Reiko as a centre and Jordie as a fullback as they are safe starters.
Post-RWC2023, we likely need hookers (and blow), locks and a half back to add to that list and lose a nother GOAT.
If we have little to no confidence in Foster developing the team, why leave him in-place to leave a mess for his successor when the chances of RWC are largely independent of the current coaching team? At worst we start to move forward again...
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@PecoTrain said in Foster must go:
If we have little to no confidence in Foster developing the team, why leave him in-place to leave a mess for his successor when the chances of RWC are largely independent of the current coaching team? At worst we start to move forward again...
Genuine question. If Foster is replaced - and I think he should be - and the new coach drops more than one game in the TRC and/or loses a game on the EOYT (more than possible the way England, Wales & Scotland are playing at the moment), he will have done no better, or possibly worse, than Foster in 2021.
What do we do then? Do we sack the new coach and look for another to turn things around in time for Sept 2023?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@PecoTrain said in Foster must go:
If we have little to no confidence in Foster developing the team, why leave him in-place to leave a mess for his successor when the chances of RWC are largely independent of the current coaching team? At worst we start to move forward again...
Genuine question. If Foster is replaced - and I think he should be - and the new coach drops more than one game in the TRC and/or loses a game on the EOYT (more than possible the way England, Wales & Scotland are playing at the moment), he will have done no better, or possibly worse, than Foster in 2021.
What do we do then? Do we sack the new coach and look for another to turn things around in time for Sept 2023?
Obviously not. The new coach’s mandate should be to come in and arrest the current slide and try get this current crop of players to the stage where they don’t embarrass themselves at the World Cup next year. Whoever comes in will have I imagine quite a bit of goodwill for volunteering to take on the difficult task of turning around this shitshow, and probably because he will have shown some coaching ability in the past so people will immediately believe he can actually turn things around (and hopefully so do the players). The damage to this team may be irreparable and impossible to turn around, but we may as well try, right?
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@Victor-Meldrew progress for the new coach won't just be winning, but clarity around selections, game plans and direction. There may be short term losses, but there has to be hope for the future.
You raise a really good point though, the issue is deeper than just the coach. But the coach has appeared to be a significant part of the issue.
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@junior said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@PecoTrain said in Foster must go:
If we have little to no confidence in Foster developing the team, why leave him in-place to leave a mess for his successor when the chances of RWC are largely independent of the current coaching team? At worst we start to move forward again...
Genuine question. If Foster is replaced - and I think he should be - and the new coach drops more than one game in the TRC and/or loses a game on the EOYT (more than possible the way England, Wales & Scotland are playing at the moment), he will have done no better, or possibly worse, than Foster in 2021.
What do we do then? Do we sack the new coach and look for another to turn things around in time for Sept 2023?
Obviously not. The new coach’s mandate should be to come in and arrest the current slide and try get this current crop of players to the stage where they don’t embarrass themselves at the World Cup next year. Whoever comes in will have I imagine quite a bit of goodwill for volunteering to take on the difficult task of turning around this shitshow, and probably because he will have shown some coaching ability in the past so people will immediately believe he can actually turn things around (and hopefully so do the players). The damage to this team may be irreparable and impossible to turn around, but we may as well try, right?
So if it turns out the new bloke's not a great success and doesn't do any better than Foster? What do we do then?
Don't think it's viable to just accept that level of performance, keep the new bloke in place, blame it all on Foster and effectively shrug our shoulders and say "at least we tried". Need a bit more planning than that surely.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@junior said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@PecoTrain said in Foster must go:
If we have little to no confidence in Foster developing the team, why leave him in-place to leave a mess for his successor when the chances of RWC are largely independent of the current coaching team? At worst we start to move forward again...
Genuine question. If Foster is replaced - and I think he should be - and the new coach drops more than one game in the TRC and/or loses a game on the EOYT (more than possible the way England, Wales & Scotland are playing at the moment), he will have done no better, or possibly worse, than Foster in 2021.
What do we do then? Do we sack the new coach and look for another to turn things around in time for Sept 2023?
Obviously not. The new coach’s mandate should be to come in and arrest the current slide and try get this current crop of players to the stage where they don’t embarrass themselves at the World Cup next year. Whoever comes in will have I imagine quite a bit of goodwill for volunteering to take on the difficult task of turning around this shitshow, and probably because he will have shown some coaching ability in the past so people will immediately believe he can actually turn things around (and hopefully so do the players). The damage to this team may be irreparable and impossible to turn around, but we may as well try, right?
So if it turns out the new bloke's not a great success and doesn't do any better than Foster? What do we do then?
Don't think it's viable to just accept that level of performance, keep the new bloke in place, blame it all on Foster and effectively shrug our shoulders and say "at least we tried". Need a bit more planning than that surely.
Human sacrifices?
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@nzzp said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew progress for the new coach won't just be winning, but clarity around selections, game plans and direction. There may be short term losses, but there has to be hope for the future.
You raise a really good point though, the issue is deeper than just the coach. But the coach has appeared to be a significant part of the issue.
My point is if/when we dump Foster we have to expect much more than just visibility of new game plan and getting more information at pressers on selection thinking.
Sure, I'll give a loss or two if that means progress, but I'd want some pretty rapid progress after 2-3 games if I were NZR and have some contingency plans on re-appointment in place if it doesn't happen. Hope is all well and good, but let's not have another Foster-like fiasco.
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@stodders said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@junior said in Foster must go:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@PecoTrain said in Foster must go:
If we have little to no confidence in Foster developing the team, why leave him in-place to leave a mess for his successor when the chances of RWC are largely independent of the current coaching team? At worst we start to move forward again...
Genuine question. If Foster is replaced - and I think he should be - and the new coach drops more than one game in the TRC and/or loses a game on the EOYT (more than possible the way England, Wales & Scotland are playing at the moment), he will have done no better, or possibly worse, than Foster in 2021.
What do we do then? Do we sack the new coach and look for another to turn things around in time for Sept 2023?
Obviously not. The new coach’s mandate should be to come in and arrest the current slide and try get this current crop of players to the stage where they don’t embarrass themselves at the World Cup next year. Whoever comes in will have I imagine quite a bit of goodwill for volunteering to take on the difficult task of turning around this shitshow, and probably because he will have shown some coaching ability in the past so people will immediately believe he can actually turn things around (and hopefully so do the players). The damage to this team may be irreparable and impossible to turn around, but we may as well try, right?
So if it turns out the new bloke's not a great success and doesn't do any better than Foster? What do we do then?
Don't think it's viable to just accept that level of performance, keep the new bloke in place, blame it all on Foster and effectively shrug our shoulders and say "at least we tried". Need a bit more planning than that surely.
Human sacrifices?
Well, pitch-forks and flaming torches are (rightly) all the rage right now....
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Anybody wonder if Foster doubts himself or does he really believe he is capable of turning things around?
Must be very hard to coach effectively if you think everyone thinks you are an idiot.
I imagine he must be low on self confidence and it must be a very hard headspace to be in which surely does not help things.
When things go wrong people start pointing fingers and you wonder what the locker room chat is among players, coaches etc re Foster.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@PecoTrain said in Foster must go:
If we have little to no confidence in Foster developing the team, why leave him in-place to leave a mess for his successor when the chances of RWC are largely independent of the current coaching team? At worst we start to move forward again...
Genuine question. If Foster is replaced - and I think he should be - and the new coach drops more than one game in the TRC and/or loses a game on the EOYT (more than possible the way England, Wales & Scotland are playing at the moment), he will have done no better, or possibly worse, than Foster in 2021.
What do we do then? Do we sack the new coach and look for another to turn things around in time for Sept 2023?
I’d accept keeping the bledisloe and not losing to wales or Scotland on end of year tour. Oh and going 2-0 vs Argentina. Can’t expect a guy to come in at short notice and not potentially lose to SA in SA.
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@ploughboy said in Foster must go:
foster to stay to be joined by gatland and schmidt
Schmidt and Gatland like water and oil.
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@pakman said in Foster must go:
@ploughboy said in Foster must go:
foster to stay to be joined by gatland and schmidt
Schmidt and Gatland like water and oil.
Both focus on defence, prefer to play to set patterns (which some argue the ABs need right now). It might work 😁
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@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
I’d accept keeping the bledisloe and not losing to wales or Scotland on end of year tour. Oh and going 2-0 vs Argentina. Can’t expect a guy to come in at short notice and not potentially lose to SA in SA.
Not good enough. We'd be treading water or going backwards compared to Foster with no guarantee things are really on the up.
Enough mediocrity - put success measures in place and have an action plan if they aren't met.
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@chimoaus said in Foster must go:
Anybody wonder if Foster doubts himself or does he really believe he is capable of turning things around?
Must be very hard to coach effectively if you think everyone thinks you are an idiot.
I imagine he must be low on self confidence and it must be a very hard headspace to be in which surely does not help things.
When things go wrong people start pointing fingers and you wonder what the locker room chat is among players, coaches etc re Foster.
On a personal level, you'd have to have a heart of stone not to feel for the guy. He's had a load of stuff hit him which is out of his control and I don't doubt he's doing his best.
But he's paid to do a job and if he can't do it then he should consider his position. At the very least you'd hope NZR are giving him the support he needs no matter what he and they decide to do.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster must go:
@Billy-Tell said in Foster must go:
I’d accept keeping the bledisloe and not losing to wales or Scotland on end of year tour. Oh and going 2-0 vs Argentina. Can’t expect a guy to come in at short notice and not potentially lose to SA in SA.
Not good enough. We'd be treading water or going backwards compared to Foster with no guarantee things are really on the up.
Enough mediocrity - put success measures in place and have an action plan if they aren't met.
Do t think so. I have only hope and not expectation when the ABs play these days.
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The Blues wound up in this situation. So have the Warriors.
What doesn't work :
-- pretending it was not a problem and nothing needed fixing.
-- staying with poor coaches, hoping they'd get better.
-- picking nice guys to coach with mana rather than those with winning records because the other guys were kind of prickly and irritating and were going to ruffle some feathers.
-- endless rants about "lack of development" and how the whole organisation was dysfunctional and needed a hard reboot.. This was a Fern speciality. Still is, apparently. (The Waikato RU is as dysfunctional as any on the planet. They can still have winning seasons.)
-- spending money on players.
What did work :
-- trying new things until one stuck.
-- a good coach.
It turns out that that pretty much everything hung on the coaching. Everything else was fine when he was good.
Rennie showed that Foster was the problem at the Chiefs, although in his case it was also the useless WRU -- but cronyism with Foster was part of that.
My predictions:
-- doing nothing will be a disaster.
-- eventually the problems will be sorted by the right coach.
-- nothing else matters. Back room chair organising will not fix poor coaching.
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@Chester-Draws said in Foster must go:
What did work :
-- trying new things until one stuck.
-- a good coach.
It turns out that that pretty much everything hung on the coaching. Everything else was fine when he was good.
-- nothing else matters. Back room chair organising will not fix poor coaching.Agree, very few teams have won trophies with a poor coach.
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@Chester-Draws I respectfully disagree.
Good coaches in poor environments will struggle. Bad coaches in good environments will look better than they are.
The Blues renaissance came with a new board. Everything good flowed from there; a good coach, better player selection and retention, a competent back room staff, stakeholders/owners that weren't at war with each other. The coach can't fix those issues.
It's like a good 10 in a bad team. They'll be dragged down.
