Foster, Robertson etc
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Victor-Meldrew yeah of course, it certainly isnt quite that simple, but this is running the bestest and winningest rugby team in the history of rugby, and you have no kpis around winning?
For sure. I should have made that clearer. Just don't think it's the only measure. I'd like to see the reviews as more holistic than win ratio or even performance and look at things such as likely future issues to be addressed
What other things can you genuinely measure him on?
New players bought in? Easy to do if winning doesn't matter.
How you play? Very subjective, and then cards can influence this.
PLayer disipline, probably one we could look at, but we know how fickle they can be anywayOn the overall trajectory of the team probably, which could be a mix of hard and softer measure - wins, cards & discipline, player input, dealing with injuries, adapting to new rules, player pool.
Sure, winning isn't everything, but for the AB coach, it damn well should be a very important, large peice of the puzzle.
Heretic.....
But you're right and it's also making sure we are ahead of the curve where possible and continue to win. -
Don’t think that is the case Dan. I think that happened much earlier than that.
I do remember watching Retallick in 2012 for the Chiefs thinking how bloody good this young unknown lock and get him into the ABs now!!
😎 #scout -
@DaGrubster said in Foster:
Don’t think that is the case Dan. I think that happened much earlier than that.
I do remember watching Retallick in 2012 for the Chiefs thinking how bloody good this young unknown lock and get him into the ABs now!!
😎 #scoutHey Grubs, passed on your message to prodigal son too mate. I think you will find the year Rennie took over was when the change of players took place. Cruden moved to Chiefs, you could have outsiders that noone else wanted but home franchises got first pick of players uo until than. I actually remember Marty Holah talking about it in a programm I saw him on , when talking about history of Super teams in NZ. I think 2011 Chiefs has Tana who had come back from France and was tied up with Counties. I know I thought with Retallick how the hell did the Canes not get him signed up!!
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@Dan54 Pretty simple really, he played for Hawkes Bay so was never going to be picked against the behemoths like Mark Reddish and Jeremy Thrush and there probably would have been another "no name" or two from Wellington tucked away in the Hurricanes too.
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@Kruse There aren't many Rugby coaches from anywhere aged between 40 and 55 with anything like Razor's track record of success. Rassie Erasmus, Andy Farrell & Fabien Galthie are probably the closest. He's a outstanding coach who will win many more trophies before he's done.
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Well done to Plumtree. Not sitting around but back to work. And a good chance to show what he can do as an unpaid assistant coach
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@Kruse There aren't many Rugby coaches from anywhere aged between 40 and 55 with anything like Razor's track record of success. Rassie Erasmus, Andy Farrell & Fabien Galthie are probably the closest. He's a outstanding coach who will win many more trophies before he's done.
Actually Razor leaves the others for dead, none of them were really hell of a successful as coaches below Test level, they did ok, but certainly weren't coaches that made a name as coches at that level. Razor has won heaps more titles, the other ones have won at highest level though. I would suggest that Rod MacQueen would leave them all behind?
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@MajorRage said in Foster:
Which is why I place almost all of this blame on the NZRU head honcho's, instead of Foster. He should never have been appointed in the first place. Never.
Well we agree there totally. I was ABF right from the get go, and haven't moved on that. Things have panned out pretty much exactly as the ABF crew feared.
Although, as I said earlier, I think Hansen has to share some of the blame. He talked him up, based on f-all.
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@Chester-Draws said in Foster:
@MajorRage said in Foster:
Which is why I place almost all of this blame on the NZRU head honcho's, instead of Foster. He should never have been appointed in the first place. Never.
Well we agree there totally. I was ABF right from the get go, and haven't moved on that. Things have panned out pretty much exactly as the ABF crew feared.
Although, as I said earlier, I think Hansen has to share some of the blame. He talked him up, based on f-all.
Well surely if Hansen talked him up, it would be based on working with him for oh I don't know about 7-8 years having him as assistant.
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@Dan54 although many of the issues we are seeing now started in the final couple of years under hansens watch.
If Fozzie was an astute coach he'd have picked up the issues and looked at ways to rectify them to make his job as head coach easier, instead, he was hamstrung by a poor recruitment process, and allowed these issues that seemed clear to most rugby fans in NZ to fester and grow to the point we are at now.
Watching the npc there are plenty of forwards running about who display the skills required, it's about nurturing these guys and those around them so it again becomes the norm, and allow them to continue at the highest level, rather than picking guys based on thier scrummaging ability, which was never really truly world class anyway.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 although many of the issues we are seeing now started in the final couple of years under hansens watch.
If Fozzie was an astute coach he'd have picked up the issues and looked at ways to rectify them to make his job as head coach easier, instead, he was hamstrung by a poor recruitment process, and allowed these issues that seemed clear to most rugby fans in NZ to fester and grow to the point we are at now.
Watching the npc there are plenty of forwards running about who display the skills required, it's about nurturing these guys and those around them so it again, and allow them to continue at the highest level, rather than picking guys based on thier scrummaging ability, which was never really truly world class anyway.
Sorry mate, I wasn't defending Foster as a coach, just I thought it was a little strange when MR said Hansen talked him up based on f*** all, not saying he's right or wrong but I would suggest after working with him for 7-8 years you could not say he talked him up on f*** all.
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@Chester-Draws said in Foster:
@MajorRage said in Foster:
Which is why I place almost all of this blame on the NZRU head honcho's, instead of Foster. He should never have been appointed in the first place. Never.
Well we agree there totally. I was ABF right from the get go, and haven't moved on that. Things have panned out pretty much exactly as the ABF crew feared.
Although, as I said earlier, I think Hansen has to share some of the blame. He talked him up, based on f-all.
Totally agree Mate.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 although many of the issues we are seeing now started in the final couple of years under hansens watch.
If Fozzie was an astute coach he'd have picked up the issues and looked at ways to rectify them to make his job as head coach easier, instead, he was hamstrung by a poor recruitment process, and allowed these issues that seemed clear to most rugby fans in NZ to fester and grow to the point we are at now.
Watching the npc there are plenty of forwards running about who display the skills required, it's about nurturing these guys and those around them so it again, and allow them to continue at the highest level, rather than picking guys based on thier scrummaging ability, which was never really truly world class anyway.
100% spot on.
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@Chester-Draws said in Foster:
Although, as I said earlier, I think Hansen has to share some of the blame. He talked him up, based on f-all.
As did the AB's themselves - inc. veterans like Savea, Whitelock & Mo'unga who have worked under 2 or 3 head coaches. Not sure what your point is other than to keep going back over old ground again and again.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster:
other than to keep going back over old ground again and again.
Long time lurker? Welcome to the fern.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 although many of the issues we are seeing now started in the final couple of years under hansens watch.
If Fozzie was an astute coach he'd have picked up the issues and looked at ways to rectify them to make his job as head coach easier, instead, he was hamstrung by a poor recruitment process, and allowed these issues that seemed clear to most rugby fans in NZ to fester and grow to the point we are at now.
I think that the strongest 'theme' from Hansen's latter years and Fosters ones are that they both think that the ABs only require tweaks to solve the rush D and combating the bigger collision forwards.
Foster did say at the start of his tenure that he had identified where some changes were needed. It has just taken too long to implement them.
As for personnel, I have sympathy. Covid came at a really bad time for the ABs in that evolving/identifying players was constrained and even those that were there had to deal with many disruptions.
I don't think that we were in a great position anyway so extra difficult to make changes when there's so much else going on.
I'm hoping that luck and circumstance may have righted the ship a bit as the punts that were taken when backed deep into a corner look like they may have shown the way forward.
The more in the shit you get, sometimes you think less risk is possible until you see that the only way is to go all in and cross your fingers. -
and new players all ready to be put into place.
That would have created some HR issues I'd assume as the amount of compensation a player gets is tied to them making the AB squad. New boss comes in and ditches some of the players mid competition. Maybe at the least NZ rugby would have to pay out any players dumped mid RC the full rate?
I seem to recall from years gone by, something like they get at 3xtra 7 grand a week while in camp. On top of normal contract money. So if you're dropped you obviously lose that but are still contracted, so players movement would not cost.
When I used players I meant new players as in 'new players as in the game of coaching!' Very bad choice of word and phrase!
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@taniwharugby said in Foster:
@Dan54 although many of the issues we are seeing now started in the final couple of years under hansens watch.
If Fozzie was an astute coach he'd have picked up the issues and looked at ways to rectify them to make his job as head coach easier, instead, he was hamstrung by a poor recruitment process, and allowed these issues that seemed clear to most rugby fans in NZ to fester and grow to the point we are at now.
I think that the strongest 'theme' from Hansen's latter years and Fosters ones are that they both think that the ABs only require tweaks to solve the rush D and combating the bigger collision forwards.
For the life of me I can't see why they complicate it. Just play more direct as they did at Ellis Park.
It's like the stupid fancy lineout moves where there is so much movement it invariably ends up missing the jumper. -
The plus side of the whole saga is that we've probably got a significantly increased chance of winning RWC2023, than we had 6 weeks ago.
Foster, Schmidt, Ryan possibly gives us a legitimate chance, where Foster, Plumtree, Mooar only looked like potential burglars to me. Fozzie has also had his 2007 Henry moment, without having to lose a World Cup to experience it.
Since 2015, I haven't really had the impression that the AB coaches are working in the "leave absolutely no stone unturned in the quest to win" mode that we had from 2007-2011.
Fozzie's fright may get them back in that mode for 2023. And he hopefully has some guys on his staff who have the technical ability to win it rather than fluke it.
